How My Sister’s Death at Four Shaped My Life

What happens when death touches your family before you even understand what it means?

In this episode of Don’t Be Caught Dead, I sit down with funeral celebrant Leonie Fletcher Adams, whose life was profoundly shaped when her sister died at just four years old. That childhood loss not only shaped her family but also planted the seed for a lifelong journey of spirituality, honesty, and connection.

Leonie shares her path from nursing and acting to becoming a funeral celebrant, weaving in her belief in spiritual guides, the importance of rituals, and why every funeral deserves to be an honest reflection of the person who has died. We talk about how grief is often unacknowledged in siblings, why including children in funerals matters, and how simple touches — like jellybeans in the cupboard or roses from the garden — can make ceremonies deeply personal.

This isn’t just about organising funerals. It’s about truth, spirituality, and finding ways to honour life while facing the reality of death. Leonie’s insights are raw, deeply human, and grounded in decades of experience with families at their most vulnerable.

In this episode, we cover:

• How losing her sister as a child shaped Leonie’s family and her life’s purpose
• The role of spirituality and spiritual guides in navigating grief and creating funerals
• Why honesty is central to meaningful end-of-life rituals
• How rituals, music, and personal touches create space for healing
• The challenges of grief after the funeral is over — and why anniversaries matter
• The importance of preparing funeral wishes as an act of love for those left behind

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,
Catherine

Leonie Fletcher Adams – Contact Details

Website: www.spiritualfunerals.com.au

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Contact Catherine

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Podcast Editor: https://www.livvimusic.com/

Music composer: Ania Reynolds - https://www.aniareynolds.com/

Transcript

0:00

I'm very clear, but sometimes when I have to speak off the cuff, it, the lines won't come out. So it's, that's another thing. Yeah. Yeah. The, um, I, many times I, um, I refer to it myself as the, the perimenopause. Yeah. You know, mind fog Yes. That you get. Um, and so I refer to it all the time. All right. So, so you're in good company. Oh, good. Don't worry. Okay. Catherine. No. Okay. No, very good company. Um, so I've just pressed record, so that seems to be doing its thing, which is fantastic. Um, all the levels seem to be good, so there we go. I'm happy with that. Yeah, that's good. Little less of that is good. Little volume. No, that sounds pretty good. I'm pretty happy with, with all of that. Uh, yeah. Yep. No, that's, do you just want to talk Leone? Yes. Hi, Catherine. Super to be here with you. Yeah, I think that's coming through well. Okay. Brilliant. Okay, let's get started, shall we? Today I'm speaking with Leona, if I can get started Today I'm speaking with Leonie Fletcher Adams. Leonie is deeply passionate and highly experienced funeral celebrant whose spiritual values of non-judgment, kindness, integrity, and connection, shape every aspect of her work. With more than 30 years experience, creating ceremonies of meaning and memory. Leonie draws on a unique blend of formal training, lived experience, and soulful insight to support individuals and families through one of life's most vulnerable moments. Leone's diverse qualifications include spiritual counseling, accredited mediumship, grief and loss training, metaphysical and liturgical studies. I'm so glad I said that right? I hope I did. It's a lot to trip over. It is. It is. And it also includes palliative nursing, theatrical training, and professional experiences as a funeral director. Her background enables her to craft funeral ceremonies that authentic, dignified, heartfelt, and genuinely reflective of the person being honored, whether that be secular, spiritual, or something in between. Described by many as delivering the best funeral I've ever been to. That's pretty good. Leonie offers a calm, grounding presence and a rare ability to hold space for people's grief while celebrating the sacredness of life. She is based in Algan in Victoria and leads spiritual funerals, an offering of conscious, inclusive, and personally tailored end of life rituals. Thank you so much for being with me. Leonie. My pleasure to be here, Catherine. Thank you. And we are doing something a bit different today. We are actually in person in my office. You are not on the screen. Yeah. And that's a really lovely thing, especially just given the fact that you've traveled from Regan to be here today. Mm-hmm. So thank you so much for being with us. Yeah, thank you. So tell me, how did you get started in, in this funeral industry? Leone. Okay. Well, I have to go back to when I was three years old. Because my 4-year-old sister died and I lost my best friend and my parents lost their eldest C child. And it still brings up the tears as she can hear. Yeah. So that loss and grief shaped our family. And in that, I feel I knew that there was something beyond this earth that something else was going on. And as a child I would've called that God, I called it the spiritual worlds. Now and on my life journey, I've sought out teachers to help me understand the spiritual world. Um, and I see my training as. A nurse and as an actress and as a funeral director, they all came together to create my celebrancy. I never did formal training as a celebrant. I was learned on the job, so to speak, and when I began over 30 years ago to conduct ceremonies, I realized pretty quickly that people needed hope and they often lost hope when somebody they loved died. And at that point, I kept my spiritual beliefs to myself. But there came a point in my journey where I realized that. The spiritual life is a way of life, a way of living your life. And it was how I lived my life. So why would I want to hide who I am and what I do and what I believe? Um, and yeah. And, and so just on that, there's a, there's a few things that I'd, I'd like to, to talk about that you've raised there. Yeah. So firstly that, that change of recognition for you between believing in a God Yes. To now that transition to spirituality. Yes. Tell me what, what religion were you, were you raised in a particular religion? No, not at all. Um, as a child, uh, the local, we moved to an area that was a new area for the war, war service homes. This was in Western Sydney? Yeah. And there was a local church. The Church of Christ. It was Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm familiar with Church of Christ. Yeah. Yeah. My husband was, was, uh, was raised in that, yeah. Oh, right. Okay. So, um, the minister happened to knock on the door, uh, to invite any children along to Sunday school, and my grandmother answered the door and my grandmother was my godmother. And she said, right, you kids are going off to Sunday school. My father hated the idea, but nevertheless, we went, we went off and it was like, um, a, a safe place for me. And I loved the singing and I loved the stories and yeah, I, I, I knew great. Mm. Lots of the Bible off by heart and things like that. So I felt like I'd come to my spiritual home, even though I wouldn't have called it that at that time. Yeah. And then tell me about that, that transition for you, how your faith developed over that time and over your experience. Yeah. Um, I suppose because I'd always felt mm, that there's, you know, Shakespeare wrote, there's more things in heaven and earth, Horatio than in your yours are my philosophy. If you understand and have an appreciation of that, then you know there's something greater and bigger going on than yourself. So from, uh, church, and I think when I, in my nursing years in looking after people, I, I saw how, um. Uh, a complicated life was really for people, how dramatic it was. You know, how sad it was. Uh, and so my eyes were opening all the time. Uh, I, you know, went overseas and saw where, you know, sacred sites or, uh, learned about spiritual things through books. I loved Scott Peck books. Uh, you know, the Roadless Traveled. That was a real eyeopener. Then I found, um, in Victoria, uh, spiritual teacher who combined and Western religions. It was a formal church, but he taught reincarnation and karma. And then the next thing was I put all that away. Moved to Tazzie, hid what for a while. Looked at course in miracles, read all that. And then from there went, uh, came back to um, uh, Melbourne and heard about a couple of people that were doing readings at a little cheese and wine evening. And I went along to that and there was this gentleman there called Ian Rogers and he gave me a mini reading and I nearly fell off the floor with the accuracy with, uh, I was like blown away so this person can tell me about myself. Things I didn't have never told anybody. So, yes. So there it, is it possible to share any of those little things? Uh, well, that was a while ago now. But yes, he, he told me about my marriage at the time, what I was going through in my marriage, um, what I, of the hurts that had happened in my life. Uh, told me about, uh, my spirit guides, who was looking after me and why. Yeah. So it was, even though it was only 15 minutes long at that time, I, I went, here's my next teacher. Yeah. I think the, the student finds the teacher. So I was always, as I say that way, inclined. Yeah. That, um, yeah, I just gravitated to, uh, there's more to life than what we see, you know, this more going on than what we see and I, and to know that we're this tiny dot, and yet. We can be so creative. Look at what you do. You know, we've all got amazing talents and, no, that's good. That's all good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, yeah, that's, that's, um, that's fan. That's very interesting. Um, I, sorry. What we'll do is I'll pick it up from Yeah. So that's fine. Um, and I'll move this away so you don't have to worry about it. Don't get that. Yes. There you go. Yeah. But that's all good. Um, so just something that, that, that you mentioned there mm-hmm. That you ran away to Tasmania. Yes. Was, was there any reason, uh, anything that happened that drove that, that running away? That's, um, I think we all at times in our life feel like we just gotta get away and regroup and heal ourselves, or, uh, we need change. What happened? The, my spiritual teacher at that time died. Uh, things went a bit awry in, you know, within people that had loved each other and suddenly all our differences were coming up. Um, yeah. And I just felt right. We just need to sort this out in my mind. What has happened here? So, um, my husband and I went off to Tazzie. We knew no one, um, we took our dogs, we took everything. Why Tassie? There was a friend of my husband's at the time who loved fishing. And he was down in Tasie, he said, oh. And he rang up and he said, oh, you should come down to Tasie. The fishing's great down here. Not the We fished. Yeah. But yeah, let's come, come on down. So, you know, pristine and beautiful. And it was like a phone call. Oh, well let's go to Tassie. It was just instantaneous like that. And tell me which part of Tasmania? In Hobart we ride In Hobart. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Just on Bel Rie beach where the cricket oval is just Yeah. Yeah. Wow. On a cliff overlooking the water. And, uh, yeah, it was, it was magic. I still miss the fresh fish off the wharf down there and the, the fresh air. It's, as soon as I came back to Melbourne, I could really tell the difference was. Yeah. And so you moved back to Melbourne. Yeah. And you, you had this experience. Mm-hmm. Tell me. What happened, like after that 15 minutes that, that you were quite blown away with what he was saying to you? Yes. How, what was that impact for you moving forward in your life? Uh, the marriage ended, um, I realized that, well, Ian helped me realize that I had a lot of spiritual knowledge in my mind, but I hadn't really gotten to the depths of myself as a person. So I, I went on a conference, actually, we took off to Vietnam. There was a few of us, and we learned about our spiritual guides, about our purpose in life and yeah, connection to the spiritual world. So it was starting to come out of my head. Where I had knowledge and to come into my being, to all the talents or, um, creativity that I had now seemed to be more purposeful. I, I don't think I'm explaining it very well, but it was like, um, you know, you can have a, maybe if I said about my nursing, if, if I'd done a university degree but had never changed a bed or a bed pan, what sort of nurse would I be? So I had all this knowledge here, but how can I be a better person on this planet? How can I put everything that's in Leonie into a good practice? And I had, um, worked in funerals at the time and so I started to, uh, see that what I believed. Uh, what I could share with people with my energy and my, um, uh, feeling that we're all equal and that we're all messed up and that we're all a mixture of so much and accept people and not judge them, but just to be there for them. I, I, I somehow could. Yeah, and from, from that moment in childhood, that little 3-year-old girl that experienced that major thing in life, then it somehow felt like that was the stepping off point for what I meant to do and be. Does that make sense? It, it does. And it sounds like you were. It's almost like, um, embodying from, from being an intellectual That's right. To actually more of like an embodiment of what you feel like you represent. Would that be a way to That would be a way to put it, yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And tell me, you talk about the spiritual guides. Yes. How talk, could you talk me through what a spiritual guide is, how you can connect with spiritual guides? Do we all have them? I, I, this is something I'm, I'm absolutely fascinated with. Oh. So if you can, you can talk through that to me to give me a better understanding and the listeners a better understanding. That'd be great. Okay. Um, look, we all come in to this planet with guides and they're there, they're allocated to us when we're, even before we're in the womb, you know? Um, and there's always a guide that's there from birth till we die. Yeah, that's our guardian. I guess we've got some people would call it the guardian angel. I wouldn't call it angels, but they're, they're there to be an overseer for our life. Then we have guides to, to help us. So we've always got a guide. You know, you might say, oh, I know that's wrong, you know, and so that a gut feeling. A gut feeling. So there's your guide. Yelling in your ears sometimes. Sometimes, you know, they're just, they're going, oh gosh, Leone's making that may same mistake again. You know, we're gonna have to try something different. So yeah. They're there to call on. They're there loving us and wanting the best for us in all that we do. And, uh, yeah. So there's, I'm probably not the best person to, I'm, I'm not a spiritual teacher. I'm a no. But in, it's only in relation to your, your experience Yes. And your story. So I'd love to hear about your experience and what it means to you. Yes. Well, for instance, when I'm conducting a funeral or when I meet a family, let's go with that first. When I meet a family, the first thing I think when I there with them is, where's the love needed here? What's the hurt? What's the wound here? Um, and, and as I talk and ask, I just wanna be there as I ask them to tell me the truth about their loved one.'cause we all learned from somebody else's journey. And they often, people can't tell the truth, very hard to tell the truth in this world, but they might, as they relax, let on a few of the hardships or the hurts. Um, now where was I going with that? So I'm, I'm, yeah. In, in that I'm talking to my guide while I'm asking those questions. Help me to be in tune. What do I see? What am I hearing? What am I not hearing? What's that person not saying? Mm-hmm. Um, so then I go home and I write up the ceremony. And as I'm writing. I feel like I'm in communion, uh, with my guide, who can maybe see what's happened for that person. Uh, what's the wording needed here? What's, what will, uh, express, uh, something, give me the words so that everyone, so people say, oh, did you know that person? No, but I, I feel like I go into a space where I'm in tune with my, my spirit guides helping me and with the family and with the person who's passed, although they're often, and they're gotta do their thing. And then at the ceremony, I ask my guides, whoever's there come in and help. So then it's not a chore for me to hold the space. I just say, you know, just. Let it be, let me just be a conduit for what's needed here. Uh, yes, I may have prepared very well, but in that moment, there's a whole lot going on. How do we bring this group of people together? How can we create unity? How sometimes, and people might think this is really weird, but I imagine everyone's guide standing behind them in the room. Well, some people will say, imagine the, uh, the audience is naked. So, yes, I, I think I prefer your version. Yes, absolutely. So, uh, you know, um. Yeah. I like if, if I, I remember there was a young man who died, I'd conducted his funeral. The room was full of young blokes in black leather and tattoos and, and here I was in a floral suit or something, you know, so, and I just said, all right, we've, we've gotta, these people are really hurting. They young. He came off his motorbike, something like that. So they're all distressed. Help me to speak their language. Uh, and so the tone of my voice or Yeah, what they might not even remember what I said, but people remember what they feel. Mm-hmm. And. Um, then they brought this young man out and put him on the back of a ute or something like that. And I heard one of the young ones say, oh, that lady was great, wasn't she? You know? And I thought, okay, thank you. You know? Yeah. Um, we hit the spot for them. So yeah. What happens afterwards? I don't know often, but in that moment in time, my, my wish, my desire, my, my love for what spirit can do for people, that's what I like to feel I can bring through in that ceremony. And I think it's important to say that at its heart, a spiritual funeral is an honest funeral and everybody deserves an honest funeral. And yeah, people, some people say, you know, you know. Mom didn't believe in anything. Or when you die, you die. I've only had a handful of people say that to me in, in 30 years, when you die, you die. Most people go, oh, they're with loved ones, gone before. They're at peace now. They're free of the physical body now, you know? Um, even if they don't believe in God or heaven, they believe in a, in a space, a place that, uh, where their loved one is more free. Yeah. So. And tell me Leonie, you know, the, the, the time that you are describing, and I, I think that as you're talking, everyone will be thinking about those very important role that you have about mm-hmm. You know, when we, when we get together with our loved ones and sometimes not so loved Yes. Uh, at, at funerals. Yeah. It is, it is really complicated because you are bringing together people that may not have been together for a very long period of time. Putting them all in the one room together. Yeah. And then you have to speak about someone who can no longer represent themselves. They are, they are, have died. And, and so the information that you receive is everyone's perception of that person, and then you have to stand up there and deliver that. Mm. Tell me, you, you've talked a bit about how you, you go through the process with, um, seeking assistance from your spiritual guides in relation to that. Mm-hmm. And, and a little bit about how you use language to assist you with communicating that Yes. And the importance of honesty. Yes. What does the role of ritual play in that space when you're dealing with so many challenging things? Yes. Um, well, I think ritual and ceremony, they're another language. We communicate with a simple thing of lighting. A candle can bring tears to people. Um, I just feel, uh, yes, if people don't have to speak, but can, can do things like, uh, for instance, I might say one of the questions I might, what, what was their favorite color? What were they good at? What, what, uh, would they say was their best attribute? What did they, were they good cook? You know, I try and just go, start simple like that and then they feel excited. Ah, Nana always had a jar of jelly beans in the cupboard. Can we have that there? Yes. Bring that. And why don't you dish them out to everybody at the end of the ceremony? So even simple things like that. I think, uh, uh, little rituals or it was the person, an artist. Let's bring whether they're a great crochet or painter or photographer, let's bring that into the room. The essence of that person into the room, and the ritual of bringing that in and placing it and making a space that's got all that beauty in it. Yeah. And music too. I think, um, that moves us. That's another important part of ritual and ceremony. A beautiful soprano voice can make your spine tingle, you know, or music puts us in a place of deep thought and yeah. Um, am I answering your question? I dunno. Yeah, that's, I dunno if I, I'm putting myself in the room with those people. No, it is really helpful because especially those insight to the questions about how you work with families to try and work out what is their thing. Yes. You know, what is their story? What is well, their story or connection with the person who's died. That's right. You know, um, 'cause sometimes people don't think about this process. They don't until they're actually in it. That's, and that's so hard. That's right. Yes. And I think it's important to start simple. No matter, no matter what, you know. I've sat in, I've sat in, um, some very wealthy family homes, and then that afternoon gone to somebody's home who's a hoarder and little money, you know, so you see, but still people, uh, there's some similarities always underneath, no matter your station in life, I think everybody feels they need to be understood. Everyone needs to feel that they're loved in life, don't they? Let me tell you about a family that, um, was quite memorable. It's just coming to mind. Uh, they were at war with each other. I've meet a lot of families who are at war with each other, and sometimes I wonder why they're having a funeral, but, but they still have that feeling that's the right thing to do. Uh, but it is a good question to ask. Yeah, like sometimes. Is it really appropriate? Like if they are that warring, do they re, do they really feel like they have to go ahead? Well, sometimes it's in the person's will that they want a funeral. So they do. Or there's one person in the family that organize it, or just that they have never thought they couldn't have a funeral. Yeah. They just think they should. Anyway. This particular family, they were so at war with each other that they came in through different doors into the chapel. They sat on opposite sides of the chapel. They were all scally faced and very closed down emotionally. Oh, that's a hard audience. Yes. So I can't remember what I said now, but I do remember that. Alright, I, I need to create some unity here. I need to them to feel that they're here for a reason or, you know, um. And to do the best I can so that they feel that they've done the best they can. They can. And about 10 minutes in one of the grandchildren, I can't even remember how old she was, she may have been 12 ish or something like that, got out of a seat, went to the other side of the room and embraced somebody and said out loud, I love you. Now this had me in tears of course. And Wow. And so, and this started the tears and still people were sitting still, but you know, but that broke the ice. Yeah. What a outrageous 12-year-old girl. Yes. So. I thank my guides in that time for helping me create the space where she feels she could actually get up and do that. Yeah. You know? And her guide was probably in her ear saying, you know, why are you sitting here? You, you know, you love grandpa or whoever it was. She went and embraced, I can't remember. Um, and so by the end of the funeral, there was a feeling of we've done the right thing and you know, we've, we've said goodbye to, was it grandma? I don't, I can't remember. Um, and they even had refreshments together. Now, what happened after that? As I say, I don't dunno. I often ring the families, well, they always ring the families about 10 days after a funeral just to see how they're traveling now. All the organizations finished and paperwork's underway, and they may have collected the ashes or whatever. Yeah, so I just check, usually check in. But, um, and some people, uh, of course now are feeling that aloneness that happens. Mm-hmm. So they're grateful for a voice a little bit along the track to see how they are. Yeah. And what is the, the things that you find that are challenging for people after the funeral's been, people have probably, you know, gone back to their, their working lives by this stage. Uh, you know, 10 days is not a very long time, is it? No, no. Um, look, there's a lot to do with organizing a funeral. There's a lot of, uh, paperwork. There's a lot of, you know, you might be the executor as well and have to deal with the room at the nursing home or, you know, so there's lots of things to keep busy and it keeps your grief at bay a bit. But there comes a point, um, where of course. And people stop dropping food off or, you know, uh, the cards have stopped coming in the mail or whatever, and people just get on with their lives. And so you're left, say it's a husband and wife and they've been together 60, 70 years, you know, suddenly it's like their right arm's being cut off. Mm-hmm. Um, and the alone at night, you know, uh, and who do you talk to about your day? That sort of thing. So, um, and setting the place for one, I think is the, setting the place for why the big thing that is, is such a difference. You know, if they were someone who would sit down at a dinner table at night every night, and then that placement of, of just one. Yes. Yeah. The changes of routine, the way the changes in the way you communicate, um. In how you're seen, you know, now you're a widower, you know? Yeah. That sort of thing. We're very quick to label, aren't we? Yes, absolutely. So, um, 10 days afterwards isn't, um, they're not over things yet. They're really just at the start of their grieving. So I just say, you know, how, how was everything? How was the wake or the reception? Or, you know, how are you traveling since I saw you? Um, might talk about the funeral a little bit or whatever. And I, and I'll often say, well, you know, you can always ring if you need someone to chat to. And yeah, but it's just another little point. And then usually at the, um, yearly mark, the first anniversary can be one of the toughest times. I'll always send a card in the mail. Very old fashioned thing to do. Ah, such a lovely thing to do though. Yeah. So I just, I'm thinking of you, it's the first anniversary can be a tough day. Um, you know, and wish you, I hope there's been some blessings for you in the year along with the sadness that you feel. So Yeah, it's just the keep going sort of thing. Of course, you know, some people just get right on with things, but a lot of grief can still go unacknowledged. Yeah. And when you say unacknowledged, what grief were you, comes to mind when you say that? Uh, I think with say siblings, because that was my experience. I can remember my mother saying to me, you wouldn't remember that. You know, why are you asking about that Mom? Mom, you could not talk about Karen in my lifetime with her about, about it. You wouldn't remember. So, you know, so it was so painful for her, but I'd lost, as I said, my best friend. So I think, you know, I try to encourage people to include the children at the ceremony. I don't mind if kids are running up and down the aisle in a sense, you know, it's good if they learn respect and quietness at those times, but I think it's good to include children in it. It's a part of life. This is a part of life. Um, so I think siblings loss can be unacknowledged if, um, if siblings died or if their mom or dad's died, you know? Um, also maybe with the. Young people now and there's a dreadful amount of suicides. You know, uh, just keeping on top of that with young people where they're at, you know, like yeah. What's available to them.'cause they even down the track, you know, six months, a year down the track, some are still really hurting. Um, yeah, so grief counseling is a big, big role to play and luckily we are more aware of that now, but, uh, I still think you're meant to just get on, you know? People want you to get on with your grief. Yeah, yeah. The, um, the, the old, the old, uh, you know, misconception of grief has stages and there's a set period of time for someone to grieve is, is a, a challenge I think we still have to continually talk about. Yeah, totally. And, and I, I just say even when you've got your religious or your spiritual beliefs, grief is still a hard road and life's full of buttons and downs, but grief is a really deep, deep down, you know, so, but if you have a belief that there's more than just this world, that if there was love between you and the person that has died, that is eternal, you will see them again. Uh, you know, the spiritual world is just there and the person who's died, they don't, they'll send you signs if you're open. You know that they're, they're allowed to come and visit you from time to time. Um, yeah. So I think if you've got that belief that there's more than here, you can stay strong in that. Like, you've still gotta grieve, but there's hope. There is hope. Yeah. Um, yeah, I think that's it. And, and tell me, Leonie, you have mentioned you've been an actress, you even quoted Shakespeare. Uh, I'm sure your, your skills as an actress coming very much handy when you're standing in front of an audience like you, you are challenging either side. Families separated. Yeah. Would've come into very good play. Then tell me about your transition professionally, how you've moved from, from those different roles to what you're doing now and you know, have been doing for quite some time now. Um. Okay, so let me just say, I believe when we incarnate in this world, we have a purpose that we are meant to fulfill. And as I say, that jumping off point was my sister's death. I was drawn to the theater. Uh, I, I think it was somehow filling me up in some way, gaining confidence or, um, an expression of something that was innately me. I think that I came in with, uh, this creative expression in that way. Some people come in as artists, whatever, writers. Um, and then it came to a point where I could no longer. Uh, played the ingenue roles and I looked too young to play the mother or the grandmother, so I kind of stopped getting work. And so then I thought, well, what, what can I do now? And I, and I somehow had always been interested in death. And even in the, one of the companies I worked with, I helped write a play about grandma dying and it went round to schools and nursing homes. Looking back over her life and reliving things. We use puppetry and music and um, so I thought, ah, yes, it's always been there somehow. So I went to a day seminar. I saw something advertised in the funeral industry, and I sat at a table with someone and said, I'm interested to work in the funeral industry. And they pointed, see that lady over there? She's starting up White lady funerals in Melbourne. You might get a job there. So I did. And then I did. So, wow. So yeah. Uh, and from nursing, because in my nursing career I did a lot of palliative care nursing and I really liked it. I worked with the AIDS boys in up in Kings Cross in, um, in, uh, Sydney at the, uh, hospice up there. Um, and. So I learned a lot there. And what period of time was that, that role up there? Um, I'm trying to think. That was, uh, in my forties. Yeah, my late in my early, late thirties, early forties. I worked in that, that was when, you know, there was, uh, Australia was leading, leading, uh, on, uh, caring for the AIDS boys at that time. And not just boys, but mainly with nurse, nurse, the gay community at that time. Um, yeah, so I, I learned a lot there and saw a lot of, of course, in palliative care you see a lot of death and different ways people die. I saw how people fought it sometimes. I saw how people surrendered to it. I saw people that had lots of friends and family around them, and the love that was there in the room. I saw people die alone. I saw people die wretchedly. I saw people die. Just serenely, you know, saw people die in my arms, you know? So, um, yeah. So in, doesn't sound like there's any uniform way in which people died. No. No. And you know, everyone likes to write in the newspaper. You know, Mary died peacefully. Well, what about joyfully? What about graciously? What about indignant? What about ferociously? What about, yeah. I love that. Yeah, I love that. So I, I, I agree with you. I think that we should actually expand our repertoire of, of how we describe that. I think that's great. I think though, why we say peacefully?'cause usually in those last moments before we die, there is a recognition. That's it. Like I, I'm saying spiritually and con, uh, subconsciously. Oh, the, that's it. I am going and then you're gone. So there is a surrender in those last maybe minute or two of, of you dying. And that's something obviously you have physically seen too, in your experience. Yes, yes, yes. And how much do you think what you've witnessed, uh, in person and, and, and those deaths that you think about, how much has then that supported where your spirituality has grown? Mm. Well, I think it's just seeing life, experiencing life. And I don't see a spiritual life being separate from life. It's just is. And yeah. So I just think it's informed my purpose. And I think I'm a healer of work with words. You know, I, I did the healing as a nurse. I know how to comfort people. I know how to make them feel comfortable in a bed. I usually can see what's needed there. So I learned those basic skills. Then as an actress, I learned how to, uh, create space. How that, how you said something could change the meaning of a sentence, the intonation. Um, and I probably didn't learn to be, well, as an actress, you're trying to come across as being really real, but of course you're acting, aren't you? So, so, but that taught me how to create space, how to make sound, how to, um, bring, bring an audience in. Uh, seduce them in a way, you know? Mm-hmm. And relive the experience.'cause theater is actually reflecting back life. Yeah. And then, um, uh, as a funeral director, I was getting all the knowledge, what was going on in the background, what, how to look after a deceased body, how, uh, that, that we, we still have to that body that, that, that body carried that person, that spirit around for, you know, 93 years. You know, you honor that and you look after it and care for it. So, um, and then transport it to a crem and then you see it go into a cremator or into the ground. And so I feel all of those practical things just. Um, built on, it's, to me, it's just a natural progression or just a natural part of making up who I am. Yeah. And when you had that conversation with the lady who was starting White Lady Funerals? Yes. Yeah. Was that when you started to become a funeral director at that point? Yes, at that point I think she, she took my name and number and said, I'll give you a call. We're just sorting out staffing levels, et cetera, et cetera. And then she called me and I think I started, you know, she rang me on the Friday. I started on the Monday. Um, yeah, so it was, uh, and of course kind of thing. So from, um, yeah, theater and then straight into that. And then the reason I started to do Celebrancy work because families would come in. Who didn't want a priest or clergy, but they couldn't afford a celebrant.'cause a celebrant costs more than, than the priest. I was already employed and I watched how celebrants did it, so I volunteered, well I could do that little ceremony for them. It's in the chapel, I'm already on salary. Um, I can write something up for them. So that's how I got my smarts. Really. Wow. So it was just an evolution that happened and Yeah. And so that's now at my age, I'm looking back from that 3-year-old little girl. She wasn't quite three. And I just see each my time in the Church of Christ, how that was, um, 'cause home life was pretty awful, but I was nurtured as a child in the church, so I had. Uh, a growing love of spirit. Then, although as I said before, I would've called it God then, but I, I see that and evolving into, um, nursing. Uh, I just, one day, well, it's actually funny. I worked in a bank for a year after I left school and they had an upstairs bathroom and I was coming down the steps from the bathroom and I heard a voice say, be a nurse. And I turned around, thought someone was behind me talking to me, and there was no one there. It was my guide. I worked out later be a nurse. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. And so, oh, I thought, oh. And there, so I, um, at the time, uh, I saw an, I think in local newspaper, I. They were taking their next, uh, lot of enrollments at the, at the hospital, local hospital. And so I signed up next minute, I'm getting fitted out for a uniform and, and learning how to empty a bed pan. Wow. It sounds like that there's been certain moments in your life Yes. Where it seems like everything's aligned very well at those moments where you were sort of at a crossroad. Yes. And yes, I would totally agree, but I had to be open to that. I had to hear it, didn't I? Um, and that's not to say I haven't gone off track at times in my life, you know? But. Uh, I believe that I can see the pattern, I can see the journey, I can see, um, who helped me get to the next bit. And we all have that if we are open to seeing that, you know, we are all in our minds too much. And that's what I've been learning with my spiritual teachers now that it's all in how we feel. And if you're in touch with your feelings, and that's what I try to, uh, put into my funerals, spiritual funerals and honor funerals, a feeling funeral. We are here for a certain period of time. We dunno if it's like my sister Karen, for four years or if you're here for 104 years. Um, how do you wanna live that life? You know what, and, and if I get people to reflect on their loved one's life, right? What if they taught. What have you learned from being, what did you teach them? You know, and a gratitude for those learnings and how to now you want to live your life, how do you wanna go on?'cause there's, I think, you know, everyone wants to be loved and understood. Everybody also wants to have made a difference to someone somewhere in the world that they haven't lived their lives for nothing. And thirdly, we all don't wanna die alone with no one caring about us. So I try, you know, that's behind everything I try and do in the ceremonies that, yeah, get people to try and look at a bigger picture. And what am I going to do with my life now? Because where am I heading? You know, and I often say at the end of a funeral when I'm giving the closing words, you know, some people in the room believe Mary's now traveling on beyond this life in spirit. Others believe with her last breath, she was no more. Our time to know will come soon enough. Yeah. But in the meantime, you can believe that all life has meaning and purpose. So we thank Mary for all she's taught us, you know, taught you. I always refer it back to them, you know, we thank Mary for all she's done for you, you know? And yeah. And it sounds like you, you briefly referenced it there, and we, we don't have to go there if you don't want to, but you, you, you mentioned that your home life, uh, was not ideal. Mm-hmm. Um, was that. Well, I suppose it's very hard to tell given the fact that, you know, Karen died at the age of four mm. And you were only three. Three. Yeah. So it's very difficult to tell whether that was the catalyst that perhaps, you know, made, made life more traumatic for you. Mm. Um, or I should ask, was it traumatic? What, what was it that, um, made the, the Church of Christ far more appealing than, than what was, was it heard at home? Uh, well, as I said at the beginning, grief shaped our family and my father drank, he was an alcoholic. Well, he drank more. My mother closed down. And, you know, in a sense, the reason they got married was because mom was pregnant with Karen. We only found out this later at years. And sorry mom, if that upset you, but, um, uh, she doesn't care now. Um, yeah, so I think in that my parents were AWOL really. So I, you know, I was an observer right from the, the get go, uh, alright, this is, this is different, you know, and yeah, and I think mom just worked. Uh, she was in that mode of just getting things done. She had another baby, my other sister was in a pram, you know, so kids have to be fed, watered, dressed, cleaned. She got on. That was her way of coping. Dad's was to drink. So there was always that trauma. So I suppose this is very personal, but I suppose I grew up not wanting a marriage like that. Mm-hmm. Not wanting a man that drank the money away, you know? Um, but of course we're all our mothers, us girls, you know, I, I absorbed all that stress and grief and responsibility trying to bring them back together. You know, Hey, look at me, I'm here. Well, you know, dad's hurting, mom's hurting, but you know, little child trying to make things right. And I think I've tried to be a good girl all my life. I've tried to fix things. I've tried to make people feel better, so hence the nursing. Hence, you know, it's a really interesting that you use that term. Good girl. Mm-hmm. I, um, I recently attended a, a, a play, uh, that there was a panel discussion afterwards and one of the, um, the women who was on the panel was, um, Fabian ve and she is a, a, a well-known scholar, uh, in and talks about the good girl a lot. Mm-hmm. Uh, and about how that's really forced on women and it's generally, you know, from, from that Yeah. You know, that background of sometimes trauma, uh, that role that we always feel like we have to bring things together and fix them and be the carer. Yeah. And we end up predominantly in those roles that are generally unpaid or lower paid roles that are caring for family and, and those, and it is really interesting. Yeah. Um. How that is the perfect term for it. Yes. Being a good girl. Yes. I think I, I tried not to make waves. Mm. Not to upset them. You know, you, you, you feel all that as a little kid with your sponge for what's going on in, in the family. But spiritually we would say, that's my karma. That's alright. What are you gonna do with those feelings, Leonie? Are you going to feel sorry for yourself, for your life? Are you gonna make something of that? That's a whole journey. Mm-hmm. Isn't it? But I can say from that point in my life, I've probably been a sad child. Although I love the theater and love to make people laugh. And I think I'm good at making people laugh. I. Also I'm in touch with that sadness and I think that what helps me be a good funeral celebrant because I can feel the person's sadness too and be there with them. But it's also, I don't take it on. I'm not there to, uh, take away your grief or even heal your grief. I'm not there to make it better. I'm just there holding your hand while this is this vulnerable point in your life. And then I let it go, you know? And at that time, just letting you know there is someone who cares. You might think no one cares, but there's somebody who cares for that moment in time on your journey. Yeah. So I'm being a good person now rather than trying to be a good girl. Yeah. Look, that doesn't mean you don't slip back into old habits. On the spiritual journey. In all I've learned, I've seen how I've done that, been a people pleaser or tried to make things better for everybody. Uh, but you can turn it around. Yes, I try to make things better, but in a good way. That's helpful or honest or caring or, you know, without, at my own detriment. It's interesting 'cause you keep coming back and referring to something, a word that seems to be very strong with you is honesty. Yes. And, and making sure that you're being honest in, in what's reflected Yes. When we reminisce about that person. Yes. Who's died. Yes. And it's very hard, as I said earlier to I, I always ask people, please tell me the truth. Everything I hear today doesn't necessarily go in the ceremony, but it helps me understand you as a family. Helps me understand the person who's passed. And as I say, it's very hard to tell the truth. And some things will come, will come out, you know, and I can tune into my guide and find out, oh yeah. Or feel more what's happened for that one or this one. Um, look, I think honesty, honest honesty's a hard thing because we all wear a face mask in life, don't we? And yeah, it's just about being truly yourself and being on purpose and doing, extending yourself to be the best person that you can be. That's being honest. Uh, and if you need to tell your truth, you don't need to hit someone over the head with it. You do it with kindness, you know? So in a ceremony, I may have heard some things, but I will say, well. Uh, the person, they were wonderful at this. They may have been the best landscape artist ever, you know, but oh boy, could they be difficult in such and such? It's how you say it, you know, and people will accept it. Um, yeah, but I, and I think, I think we've all been to those funerals where, uh, you don't recognize the person that they're talking about. Well, that's what I say to the family. It's nothing worse for a celebrant if people are sitting there going, who's that woman talking about? You know? Yeah. You've got, that's where I say in those simple things of talking with people say, we're all shades of black and white. There's no judgment here. Just, you know, and the questions asked, what did they teach you? What have you taught them? What would they say was, uh, their purpose in life? What, you know, what did they love best about themselves? You know? Uh, yeah. What do you think their, if they look back on their life, what would they have regrets? You know? So I get people to just go a little bit deeper each time. Oh. So I feel they're getting a bit of a counseling session. Yeah. Without kind of knowing it, but in that, um, they feel in a safe place and then they'll share things. And of course I honor, you know, some people say, well, you know, Mary was dreadful. You know, she was what? But don't say that in the ceremony. Leonie, I have to honor that. I'm not always in the position I'm of. You know, it's not up to me to blurt out everything about Mary, but to create the space where people can say from their heart and always say, it's the things from the heart. People want to hear not great things. Mary went to school there and then she did university there, and then she did that. There. We can all have a list of things we did, but what have they, what's their legacy? What have they taught you? How did they love enough? Did they, did they do enough? Did they, would they feel satisfied with things now? So, yeah. And have you had seen, uh, as. We see more encouragement for end of life planning. Mm-hmm. And people perhaps, uh, with voluntary assisted dying, uh, and, uh, you know, the palliative process as well that we, we have available to us. It encourages people to think about what they want said at their funeral, uh, perhaps what they don't want, send what music they'd like to play. Is that helpful if people do that for you? In, in preparation? Yeah. Have you seen an increase in that? Um, I think because I'm from the baby boom in my generation, people are thinking about their funerals more. And any opportunity I get is that I like to encourage people, even if it's just writing down, you wanna be buried or cremated. Mm. And if where you want to be buried, is that important? Where you're buried, is there a grave you want to be near or in, you know, so family have that question answered. Yeah. Um. Uh, I think what I say to people is, make a cup of tea. Get a pad and paper, and imagine yourself, if you can, lying in that coffin and who's standing around you and what would you want them to know that would help ease their tears? What do you, what can you do as an act of love for those people? So, 'cause if you think about parent, a parent dying and there's, you know, five siblings, one of them will say they were the favorite. You know, so they have a better say in what should happen, you know? Um, all, all those, all those things rise up in people. So that's why it's good to have a will, isn't it? It's good to have a will and appoint an executor because That's right. Because they're the ones that can have the saying. That's right. But you know, and write down if there's music you like and poetry or whatever, just that gives a PA person an insight into what's needed, what's your, you know, favorite flower, you know, that sort of thing. So even, it doesn't have to be complicated, but just a few things and put the that with your will and let someone know where your important papers are. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's, that's the other key, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. So you're all good with that, aren't you with your stuff? I am. I am. Well, you know, I think we're all in our own way trying to encourage that Yes. Whatever form or, or shape we can. Um, yes. I think it's an act of responsibility for self and an act of love. Yeah. But I also like to say. The funeral is for the people left behind. So how do you wanna honor your loved one? How do you wanna celebrate them? How do you want to, uh, um, encourage people to learn from their story? What do you want to know? Because the person who died is actually beyond all the funeral stuff, really. They're onto the next bit. You know, it's not a bit of roses in the spiritual world. It's a place of learning like it is on earth. You don't say, oh, rest in peace. There's not peace. You know, there's only peace if you feel you fulfilled your purpose, or, uh, there's peace in that. But then there's more learning, alright? It's not, you go up there and just have a nice time and play in a beautiful garden in heaven. You know? It's not like that. It's What do you, what do you hope it would be for you? Well. Uh, what we're taught, uh, is that we'll make our way up there quickly or slowly. Um, there's a party waiting for us of all the loved ones, the people that have helped us, our ancestors, but only love. There's no one there that you would never want at your best party. Yes. And then you, uh, let's put it simply, you go into a room and watch a big television screen and your life played out for you. And you will feel every moment that you've hurt someone or love someone, you'll feel every, uh, uh, result of any action that you've taken. You'll see whether you've done the best you can do or not. And in those moments, you make a vowed yourself. I've gotta go back and fix that. I've got to Yeah. Do better next time. And then we start the learning up there. So it's like going back to kindergarten again. Okay. So, uh, Leonie needs to learn more about honesty, so we'll teach her more so when she goes back next time, she'll be the star pupil in honesty. You know? So that's what I'm learning in this life. And so there's a cycle of reincarnation. Yes. Learning. And then, so it sounds, it sounds like the model is very similar to perhaps a Christian faith where there's some sort of life in review process. Yes. Then there's a learning process. Yes. Then is a reincarnation process. Yes. So you can then come back to a life on earth. Yeah. To make amends. To make amends, yes. To do better than you did before to, um. You know, grow. We are meant to grow each time. Yeah. To be truly what our spirit is. Yeah. So, yeah. The space between What do I want? Well, I think we can create, I think we're also creative up there. So I've always wanted a little white picket fence with a rose arbor, you know, lots of animals, of beautiful flowers. So I'm hoping they'll let me live in something like that. Oh, fantastic. And go off to, to learning school, you know? Yeah. Um, but yeah, we don't have to carry these ailing bodies around anymore. We are more free that way. Um, but we still, yeah. We still have to learn and grow. Yeah. And, and I. From all I'm taught, there's levels in that, you know? And some people just dig in and don't wanna grow and don't want to be better people and contribute. So they've got some tough learning up there, you know, so they've gotta go to a bit of a different school, you know? So, yeah. Yeah. Everyone, everyone's spirit is dealt with accordingly. Leonie, I can't thank you enough for our chat today. It's been very insightful and, and you know it, when you talk about your spiritual guide, it's mm-hmm. It's something that people refer to as their conscience or an angel on their shoulder, or there's many different versions of what we have been talking through Yes. Today. And I, I really appreciate you sharing You're welcome. Your spiritual journey with us and, and what it means to you. Yeah. Thank you, Catherine. It'd be interesting to see what I came out with. Uh, hear yourself back. You go, oh yeah, uh, I forgot to say this. Or, uh, is there anything that you feel like you wanna check your notes and make sure we've covered off on everything you wanted to? And one, from my perspective, I thought it was great. Was it? Yeah, I loved it. Absolutely loved it. All right. Um, oh, it's just about truth. You know, the Irish have a saying, the truth comes out at the wake when the whiskey's flowing. You know, so often that's why people sit in the funerals and go, you know, and I think there's a feeling that most people feel they have to endure a funeral. There's a perception that they're gloomy, sad, dark, you know, um, and irrelevant. Because say a, a priest or a minister has, has to go by the church protocols or the written service, and then they just put in a deceased person's name. You know? So that can feel entirely irrelevant, whereas a celebrant can personalize a ceremony, dig deeper and be more creative. Yeah. So I think, and I really like when you were talking about how you spend time with the families to, you know, simple things like the jellybean jar. Yes. You know, like that is a way to really honor someone and create that ritual Yes. Uh, of what that person meant. So it isn't just a name that's been added to an order of service That's right. Over the last person's name. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Uh, and little touches too, like, um, do we want, uh, uh, you know, a basket of roses there? So that before we close the curtains, everyone in the room if they like, can come and place a rose, because Mary grew roses. Her rose garden was magnificent, you know, and everyone can do something, I feel, rather than just coming to a funeral and sitting there. If people do something ritualistic like that, then they're saying, my spirit recognize yours, you know, and they place a rose on the coffin and some people will do it quickly and walk away and a tears down the running down their face. Or some people will take that moment and kiss the coffin as well and place the rose on it, or, um, or they'll just spend a quiet moment there. Or, you know, grandma and granddaughter might walk up together and, you know, um, and place a rose, you know, so you see. Those sort of things that make it, uh, a beautiful moment, really. Yeah. And you just mentioned there the closing of the curtain. Yeah. So someone who is completely unfamiliar and may never have attended a funeral before. Yeah. They may be thinking What curtains? Oh yeah, sorry. Um, 'cause I still work mainly in the traditional funeral chapels or at the crematorium. And, um, in the funeral chapels, there's often a curtain closes as the last songs played, the final words have been said. The curtain just closes, gently finish, blow out the candle. Now it's time to warm yourself up on the inside after the emotional moments, you know, beforehand. And so that's why we have a, a wake, you know, uh, people in a less formal situation, they can let go a bit. Um. Yes. Uh, they've at Bunong, uh, I dunno if you've been out there, Catherine. They've got a Yes. They don't have a curtain. They, the coffin lowers and a beautiful glass screen comes up and, you know, that's, that's nice. Some people don't want any lowering or any curtains closing. They just want to leave the coffin there and people can come even while they're having a cup of tea, come in and spend a few quiet moments with the person. That's nice. I like that. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Nice. And you were just mentioning also prior to this, um, about the Irish and what they, about the Wakes. Wakes. Yes. Yes. Can you just tell us that again? Alright. So as I was talking about, it's very hard to tell the truth, you know, be honest. And the Irish, the Irish say, you know, the truth comes out at the wake when the whiskey flows. That's when you really know who the person was and how they affected you. Um. Yeah, that's, that was all in there. So, yeah. But see, in organizing funerals now, uh, we have this perception, the funeral directors have to do everything. They don't, they're there to help and guide you. We can go back to the old ways of having the person in your home, your loved one in your home, and people can come and visit and say goodbye there. Very much the Irish Way, isn't it? The Irish Way. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Um, and sit around and sit around and talk about the person, you know, just Yeah. What they meant to you, or say, oh, just sit quietly or, and think about your life and your life in relation to theirs. Yeah. So we can, we can, I've conducted funerals and gardens, which has been nice when the person, the coffin's been there. Um, and you mentioned the ute earlier too, like that, that's certainly not a traditional way in which to actually have, have the body, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, driven away. Yeah, that's right. Um, uh, I think, uh, we've, we've generally, I think simplicity has come back more. As I said, the baby boomer generation, we don't want the huge, big, heavy headstones with lots of words. We don't want, um, you know, heavy wooden caskets and they're cultural things still. But for instance, I've chosen a natural burial, so there's no plaque, no nothing. It's a, you know, maybe a tree planted, but I want much. And have you chosen a, a place for the natural burial? Yes. And. Uh, you know, um, then I want my family and friends to carry me to the grave. I want them to shovel the dirt in. I want them to stand around and say what they loved about me and what they found hard to love about me. I want lots of flowers. I want some live music. Um, yeah. And, uh, yeah, and, and I believe, I, I love doing graveside ceremonies because it makes it so real. You know, the span of life. So real. Here's all these headstones around you. There's nature trees. You usually hear birds at a bagpipe playing or a violin, and everyone feels it. Yes. The bagpipes, I've, that's a, that's a family thing with us, right? And, and yes, they're very moving. Yes, it moves you. And we had them at my grand grandfather's funeral. That was at home actually, right. And, yeah. Every time I hear the bagpipes now, it still gets me going. You know? Yes. Yeah. And it's about feeling. Yeah. And that's what my journey's been on. As I said, I had lots of knowledge up here, but to, to feel if we feel, uh, yeah, we're in touch with ourselves, in touch with our spirit. Mm-hmm. And I think those things out in nature like that, and the bagpipes playing, or a violin, you know, a learned violin with the, or somebody singing mm-hmm. You know, out there, you can't help but be in touch with your feelings in those moments. So, whereas we are in a chapel and Yeah. Yeah. It's a very different feeling, isn't It's a very different feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I love sometimes to tell a story that in, um, ancient, uh. Oh God, the words just gone outta my mind. But the women, uh, some aboriginal ceremonies like this, the women came together and they weep and wail when there's been a death. They weep and wail, not just for that death, but for all the sorrow in the world. Um, oh, where, okay. Is awful for Karen, Catherine, this word, but they, they, the ceremony was that they wep and, and, and the myth was that's how the River Nile was created from their tears, you know? So I've said Egypt. Yeah, the ancient Egypt. It wasn't the ancient Egyptians. It was, uh oh. They were, oh, just not coming to me. Doesn't matter. But the, as I say, aboriginal women do that and they'll weep and wa and they get their, their feelings out. And I think sometimes when I'm in a chapel and everyone's sitting there, you know, and all subdued. Yeah. And I think, here's this beautiful young person whose life has been shortened. We all, you know, let's all weep and wail and get it out. You know, let's all stand around and hold each other. Because I, I find like when you're talking about this, actually, I, I, I know myself like I stifle my sobbing. Yes. When you're in that scenario. Yes. Because you just don't want to be. You know, offensive or, or you know, it, it's just sort of like, oh, you know, it better not be too, too over the top. Too over the top. But if, if there is not a place to do it. Yeah. Like that is the place to do it. Yeah, absolutely. It's so, it's so weird that we do feel that we have to restrain our emotions when it's, it's one of the rawest things we, and the most natural things we can do and experience. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, yes, I think, I wonder what it'd be like to, to do that. And I, I think the, um, the American Indian culture, they had a thing that when somebody died, a tradition, not a thing, a tradition where they, each person, they sat in a circle and each person could talk about what that person meant and what belief systems they held that made them act the way they did. And, and it was that. In being truthful and in talking about those things, the next generation learns. So that's evolution, you know? Mm-hmm. So, okay, that Warrior did this and that wasn't so good because it went against what the chief wanted. You know? So how can I learn from that? You know? And so important in those cultures where oral history Yes. Is the only way in which you can actually pass down those teachings to another generation. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think we're learning some things. We are not. That's the way of things, isn't it? It really is. Yeah. And they'll be doing, will they be doing funerals differently in another 10 years time? I wonder. I don't know. Yeah. It's, it's one of those things, it's, it's like anything, um, it has been happening for eons and it will continue to happen long and after you and I are gone. Yes, that's right. And yet some things. Always remain the same about it. Same, exactly. Yeah. I'd like to just say one thing to pe There is a perception. I, I said before, funeral directors are there to help you and guide you. You can do a lot of the work yourself. Press chat, GPT, it'll tell you exactly what you need to do for a funeral. But some people think, yeah, funeral directors are there just to rip us off. Look, they're companies and they have overheads and they're gonna have to pay staff, and those staff need their jobs. But 99% of the funeral directors I deal with, they're caring, compassionate people and they want to help. They feel drawn to that, not because they, you know, are horrible people. They're there because they, they've got a history of maybe a funeral director helping them in the past or, or, um, they. They're, as I say, they're compassionate and they want to help people at a vulnerable time in their life. So I think it's a wrong, uh, a misperception to think that they're there to rip you off. They're there to help guide you, and we do need them because everyone needs to be in a coffin basically, and be taken somewhere to be cremated. So they're there to help you. And not everyone wants to do it all themselves. No, no. That's right. You're at a time where you've, you know, your life falls apart, and yes, you're vulnerable, but people aren't there to rip you off. They help there to try and help you make good decisions. But as you, as we said, if you've written down some things, some of those decisions are taken away. And in your grief, you say, thank you, Mary, for writing that down. I know what you want. Okay. And now this is what I want to do to express how I felt about you. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's lovely, Leonie. Okay. I think that's a great place to end it. Okay.