Weaving Life and Death: The Art of Eco-Friendly Coffins

What if the way we say goodbye could heal both our hearts and the planet?

In this profound episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, we sit down with Zimmi Forest, fibre artist, environmentalist, and creator of handwoven eco-coffins that challenge everything we think we know about death. Zimmi doesn’t just make baskets; she crafts vessels that reconnect us to nature, turning invasive weeds into beautiful, biodegradable farewells.

From foraging materials in the wild to guiding families through the emotional process of weaving a loved one’s final resting place, Zimmi’s work is a powerful reminder that death doesn’t have to be disconnected from life’s natural cycles. Whether you’re curious about sustainable funerals or simply seeking a fresh perspective on mortality, this conversation will leave you inspired to rethink the way we honour those we’ve lost—and how we might one day be honoured ourselves.

Key points from our discussion:

• Eco-conscious farewells: Why Zimmi swaps toxic funeral materials for invasive plants like cat’s claw vine.
• The healing power of making: How weaving a coffin can transform grief into a sacred, communal act.
• Beyond cremation: The surprisingly poetic case for natural burials (and what most people don’t know about ashes).
• Death’s dirty secret: The greenwashing in funeral industries—and how to spot it.
• Finding beauty in decay: Zimmi’s journey from artist to death educator, one handwoven stitch at a time.

Connect with Zimmi

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Website

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,

Catherine

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Music composer: Ania Reynolds - https://www.aniareynolds.com/

Transcript

0:01

People go, oh, why would you burn something so beautiful? And it's like, well, you are gonna burn a coffin. So why? Why actually pull down a tree? Why varnish wood? Why do all of those kind of things and put those into the atmosphere when you've got something that's invasive that's killing our needed forests. And why wouldn't you just use that? Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared. Don't be caught dead. Acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations and recognizes their connection to land, sea, and community. We pay our respects to their elders past, present, and emerging, and extend that respect. To all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. Today I'm speaking with Zimmi Forest. Zimmi is a fiber artist and environmentalist whose work explores the deep connection between nature. Life and death through weaving. With a background in basketry and organic materials. She creates handwoven pieces including eco-friendly coffins that honor natural cycles and sustainable living. Inspired by the textures and resilience of nature. Her art reflects themes of transformation. Im permanence and renewal. Through her practice, Zimmi invites people to rethink traditional funeral practices and embrace more meaningful biodegradable alternatives. Thanks for being with us today, Zimmi. So what inspired you Zimmi To work with natural materials? It happened quite early on. It was very much a aha moment when I was listening to the radio and they were talking about all the pollution and all of the destruction that was happening in the world. And it, yeah, just impacted on me. And so I always looked for ways that I can have less of an impact and a really low carbon footprint on the planet and use resources in the best possible way, and that played out through my life. At every stage really like, so when I would go out in the car, I wouldn't go out just for a drive. I would always have like that permaculture way where you have at least three things that you've gotta do. So when you use a resource, you use it so that it's spread amongst a whole lot of different activities. And the food, I would always buy organic and I really wanted to have a career that was the most sensitive to the planet as possible. And have you always worked iwi basketry? Tell me about the evolution of your arts practice and how it's evolved over time. Hmm. Okay. So I was very much into art as a kid, but my mother was also studying art as a mature age student, and that kind of impacted on me. And she brought home all these beautiful things that she'd make. Paint. And so that was something that I imagined and I, I was very textural, very much wanting to touch things and I textured meant a lot to me, so I would make things. And it just kind of grew from that where I'd, I started making birthday cards and gifts for people and then it just kind of grew into basketry. And yeah, I do remember having a moment when I was in early teens going to a Steiner. Um. A school fair. A faint. A faint, sorry. And just seeing a, a display of baskets and it was like another force, fourth dimensional, some other force just pushed me towards these baskets and it was like either I had to ingest them or they would eat me. And so it was like, I didn't really make sense of it at the time, but then when I got into basketry and I remembered that moment, it was like, okay, it was definitely life telling me that that's what I was gonna be doing. And yeah, it's, it's like I love it as a profession. I love it because I'm always either in nature or working with nature or talking about nature, but unfortunately basketry in Australia is, is not very well respected and yeah, so. I just had had to live with that for many years of not making an income and also people just going like, why? Why would you make a basket? Like, why would you do that? Thankfully, Instagram and COVID changed all of that, but it's been a long time coming. I've been doing it for 30 years and of that, it's only probably the last 10 years that people have started going, oh, that's pretty cool. That's great. I think it may have been COVID where people decided, oh yeah, I'll create a basket. I've got time on my hands. And then they appreciated how damn hard it is, how much time goes into it. Yeah. And what I find though is most of the baskets that people make from material that they purchased. Yeah. And, and that always saddens me because. There's absolutely no reason for us to use someone else's resources. I could literally live in a 100 meter radius of my house and never leave and make a basket every day. There's so much material. There is so many resources that people can access if they only thought about it and had the willingness to do it. So tell me, you live on Byron Bay Coast and in your local 100 meters, what can you find that you could make a basket out of? One of my favorite, which is an indigenous fiber, is the what's now called the PAB Beam Palm, which in this area used to be called the Bangalore palm, but the indigenous people have asked us to call it PAB Beam. It's an oconto phoenix cunning ana, and it has three sections of it that can be used. It has a panicle, which falls down, and it looks a bit like a chandelier. That's what goes into flour and seed, so I can use those and then. Before that falls down on it is a space. A space is a sheath over a flowering body. And so that falls off and that's beautiful to work with. And before that even falls out is you get this sheath, which is attached to the leaf stalk. And so all three of those are used. The indigenous people used the sheath and that was a water carrier or a food carrier. And that's an amazing piece of material. It's when it's wet, it's like leather. It can also look like a cow hide. It's absolutely stunning as far as not the shape of it is a cow hide, but the texture and the way that it's colored it, it looks like it has all these spots all over it, if, depending on the weather that it's been through, and it has all the different shades of, and tones of the brown and brown, gold and white, all of those colors, so it's very beautiful. It's interesting that when you talk about the materials that they seem to have such diversity in, obviously the state in which they're in, whether they're fresh or whether they're, they're drying out, and also the fact that you can then actually wet them again and it changes their properties and how you can work with them. So it sounds like that there is a lot to have learn. How have you evolved your practice over time? How have you gained your knowledge? It. It is all experience. I have done some basketry glasses. When I first started, there weren't very many basket makers in Australia, and of course this was pre-internet, and so the craft magazines and textile fiber forum were places that would either hold workshops or advertise or have articles about practitioners. And so I guess I just. My main thing, which is the lucky thing, which unfortunately people who are on Instagram don't get these days, is I develop my own voice because apic Beam, Palm actually in, when I was living in Sydney, that was on the ground and I was like, I cannot throw that out. That is so beautiful. There's got to be something I can do with it. And so it was all play and so I was able to just play with materials for the first couple of years, I reckon I made so much stuff that was really poorly put together or I didn't understand the materials, so it was all practice, it was all doing. Basketry is doing, I can use the words, I can explain how to do things and you know, like you could possibly catch on, but it's all in the doing. So I, I've spent 30 years doing it, so I, I know things and it's also working with the cycles and the seasons, like the picker beam palm. We've had an amazing season of the PAB be dropping its spades and the panicles because we've had heaps of rain. But then if we go into drought, even in the North coast, a drought isn't that bad and it's, you know, could be a couple of months. It won't drop anything. So you just know thing you, you just become so familiar. And that's the thing with all. Makers and doers is they get a feel for it, they develop a relationship, and it's all in the relationship that you have with the seasons, the nature of it, the actual plants that you, you know, when it's time to pick, you know, and that's the indigenous people, they're known for that. They just have that ancestral lineage that they know these things. And so, yeah, and that's what I've developed is a knowing of my particular fibers and my, my area. And also it's, from my understanding also the, the tactility of it and, and how you use your hands is something that you really have to learn as well when you're dealing with different materials. It's not just the materials themselves, is it? That's fine. But I take that for granted because it's been so much part of what I do and I guess it's, it's people's background. Like if you had a grandmother who knitted or crocheted or a mother who did those kind of things, or even a father who played with the, whether it was the car or the lawnmower or even made things. And I've gotta, you know, be careful because men actually used to make baskets. And if you look in European countries, it's still men making baskets. So it's not that men never, in Australia, people have a prejudice against men making baskets. It's kind of like below their standards, but it's always been in, in the indigenous culture too. Men made certain fish nets and certain parts of the process. But anyway, yeah, just for me, I've just spent a hands on person. I and I, you know, I grew up cooking, my parents had a restaurant, so hands were always part of doing. And I guess also I was always coordinated 'cause I did a lot of sport when I was younger, so. Yeah, it was just something that I naturally fell into. But I do see that when I'm teaching that some people aren't so natural with it or it's not something that it's familiar to them. And I guess that's something that I teach so that they get through that and I help them. But yeah, I think most people have a certain amount of hand. I have coordination. Well, you haven't met me. Is in one of your classes. The thing is, I reckon I could get you through, I have no doubt. But the thing that, um, we met each other at the Sydney Death and Dying Festival last year, and your work is just amazing. And, and the work that I was looking at was your, your coffins. How did your arts practice evolve into coffins? Was there a particular incident or? It's been a few things actually. It's also got to do with the indigenous people. Since they have been coming up and being promoted in the art world and basketry is very much something that they do. There's been a bit of a transition stage that we're going through, and indigenous people are taking back a lot of their basketry. When I say taking back, not necessarily taking off us because everyone has a lineage in basketry and making, but yeah, they're reclaiming it. And so government organizations are really employing indigenous people over European people for basketry classes. So it was all of those gigs that I used to get. Were take like were no longer available to me. And it was perfectly timed at the stage where I'd just come across. I had been invited to start teaching weekends of foraging and making baskets out of the cat store.'cause one of our local land care, oh, sorry. She's an organic land care practitioner. She had been invited to a property that didn't want to use poisons on their property to get rid of the cat's course. So this lady whose name's Nadia, she recognized that the material was actually really useful and we could turn it into a resource and I was basket maker in the area. She knew that. So she called me in and said, Hey, let's, let's see what we can do with this. And teach people how to make baskets out of it. And then when I went onto a property and realized just how pervasive and destructive this material was, I went, okay, this is what I need to do. I need to work with an invasive material and I need to step up into something different. Because another thing that's kind of a sideline too is that if I asked all of your audience how many baskets they have in their house. On average 10 baskets in a house. But if I asked you how many of those were made by an Australian, if you are not a basket maker yourself, all of those would've been imported baskets. So if you just think of for yourself, have you got any baskets in your house and how many of those were Australian made? Would you give me an answer? Well, it's, it's probably the wrong person to ask, saying I worked at a botanic Gardens for 13 years and, and I had a little obsession with the basket weavers that the friends group were, and so I have purchased probably a few too many baskets over the years of various You, you are one of the 1%. Yeah, I am. And it's people who know Australian basket makers who have Australian baskets, but the average person, it's, it's all imported. So I knew that I couldn't make baskets out of this material and hope to sell them because it's like we just can't compete with the imported market. And so it was like, what do Australians buy that they're prepared to actually pay real money for? And coffins was kind of the direction that I, I felt was the most appropriate, and that's why I started doing coffins out of the cat school. And they're so beautiful. And just before we go onto the, how you make a coffin, the cat's claw that you are describing, that is a, a vine, isn't it? Quite a weedy vine that strangles everything, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely. It's invasive. It's probably. I think it's on the biosecurity Act and it's one of the top three invasive species. Like they, they have different categories and I think it's in the third category or it's the third most destructive bind in Australia that's up invasive bin that's coming to Australia. Yeah, so I think it's beautiful that you're actually creating, you know, the coffins out of an invasive species that is actually doing damage to our natural environment. That's why I kind of went, okay, that's it. You know, because a lot of my materials that I can work with, it's renewable, but they're not invasive or destructive. The CAT score is, and it was. That's like, okay, let's do something with this. Let's, let's make mark. That's why I went that way. Yeah. I think it's really beautiful and it seems to be such a, a fiber that lends itself to the weaving as well. So can you talk about the process, if you don't mind, from sort of start to finish about how that evolves? Because I'm assuming there must be a period of time where you have to collect and gather before it is, is useful to you. That's right. Yep. Sorry. If every now and then I'm doing this, we're in midville. Like we have Midges like you wouldn't believe in this area. Yeah, right. Yeah, so I'm seeing them fly everywhere. Okay, so I have, and I'm going out on Wednesday collecting. So I have a team of, a minimum of four people, and we go out for two days and we collect for eight hours a day. We're climbing trees. We're cutting from the top end to the bottom. Pulling off. Now, this particular vine just attaches itself to the trunk of the tree and it climbs straight up, which is wonderful for us as weavers, which is why it makes such a great weaving material because it's not this vine that just goes off in all different directions. It's straight up. So it makes it pretty good for weaving, and as it climbs, it basically. It can sometimes put a whole like curtain or a skirt around the trunk of a tree, and then it climbs up through the crown of the leaves and it, it takes over and sits on top of it. So it takes the light. And then also what it does is that that skirt that forms around the trunk, all of the debris that would normally fall off the tree and nourish the ground underneath, falls in between it. And so it suffocates because apparently trees can breathe through their trunk as well. And so it suffocates the trunk. Basically kills trees. It takes a few years to get to that stage. But if it gets to that stage, you'll see these monsters in the forest, and it's the cat's claw has climbed over these trees, killed them, and all it is are these limbs like a cartoon monster. But you're talking anything from like a meter high to 30 meters high, so grandmother and grandfather trees are just being killed. And then also most of it's happening in the riparian zone. So basically also. Spreads on the water and so it climbs onto trees closest to the water. And then when, when those trees die, then the root system basically isn't holding the banks of the rivers together, so it causes a lot of erosion as well. And also the extra weight of the material if it's flood time, that extra weight of the water going through this material. Basically puts trees down as well. So anyway, we go in there, we climb and we cut top and bottom, and then we pull it off. And if we're lucky, all the, um, stems are kind of next to each other, but sometimes they entangle and crossover and join. So, you know, we've gotta lift and do all these things. So it's a very, very slow human process. Yeah. So it takes, like I said, a minimum of four of us two days to get enough. So you can like if looking at about 50 people hours to get the material for the coffin. So then we take that back to either my studio or storage shed or like this weekend. Then I go straight down to a teaching event and then I sort the materials so I have it in different piles for the different thicknesses, for the different parts of the coffin. And also some get put aside for baskets. And then basically off I go. And then when we get to the class, we get the students to clean the material. So the little claws, which I don't know why they call cats skull, I think they're more like birds feet.'cause they're the little, there's three like this and they small enough that they all three would fit onto my fingernail. But you probably get like six on my fingernail. They're that small, so they kind of have this hairiness and a bit of a root system. It looks like a bit system, but it's not. And also when you're pulling it off, if it's coming off a dead tree, especially dead trees, the bark comes off with it. So you've got to cut all of that material off. So you give it a haircut. And then, then you basically just weave away with it. Wow. And how, what is the process? Where do you start? Do you start, I'm assuming at the base, like do you weave the base or, I'd love to be weaving the base. I think legislation means that we have to have a solar base. Um, yeah. Okay. Where we can't, in England and Europe, I believe they can weave their bases. They don't always have to, but they can. And there is a bit more work. You know, and Cat Core isn't the best material to weave a base with because it doesn't do sharp corners. So if you weave a base, you've got timber up bites or Cat core outrights, depending on what you're gonna use and to go around. So you'd be going backwards and forwards like this, and Cat Core doesn't do a really sharp turn, whereas Willow will do a sharp turn, which is what they use in Europe. So it's not the bases anyway. And so for a coffin, we'll start at the base and put in the uprights, and then we weave our way up, and then we put in the handles, which is rope handle. I do a whole layer of rope and put the handles in that, and then we weave to the top and we turn it down, and then we weave a lid. Wow. And how long does that process take? Zumi? It's a good 60 hours. So with a team, when we have workshops, especially the public workshops, we aim for a minimum of 16 people. And I generally collaborate with a deaf educator. So we split the group up half, half, half in the morning, go to the deaf educator after me, and then we swap in the afternoon for both days. And so I generally have a team of eight working consistently. And so by the end of the weekend we can have a maid. That's amazing. And then it can be used and, and you know, and so I did one for a voluntary assisted dying and his family came together the weekend that he was going to die. And we basically started the Saturday morning and friends and family came and. Wove when they were ready and then went downstairs to see him when they were ready. So in between seeing their people, their person, they would come up and wait, and it was a really good focus for the weekend, and we got it done in the weekend and he literally went in as soon as it was finished. That is such a beautiful story that it's something that people can actively partake in while they're also spending time with the person as well. And it's a really lovely focus as well, because if you don't have something like that happening, then people will just be on their phones or they'll be bored and want to go somewhere and then, you know, they'll miss out on the family time. But working together and like, I mean, like I said, weaving. Belongs to all of us. It's in every single person's lineage. Humanity grew because of the skills that we learned to be in nature, and most of those skills were weaving up skills. So like if you think to bind housing or to make fishing nets, or to make baskets or mats or food carriers, all of that, they're all weaving skills. So everywhere in our lineage, from every tribe there is weaving. So when people get together and they weave, it has this. It's really bit woo woo, but this cosmic consciousness that when we weave, we are connecting to all those who have woven before and to our lineage and to the ancestors. And it creates a whole different atmosphere and vibe that goes on in any of those spaces. And you find people quiet down, they go into a rhythm, and because also they're working with nature, there's just something that impacts on humans in a way that digital stuff just won't do. And tell me when you then. Have finished the, the coffin and it is used at the other side of the things, the, um, process. I'm assuming that it can be used in natural burial grounds 'cause it breaks down. And, and have you done much work or research into how it breaks down or, 'cause I'm assuming it would be. It, it, you know, it's natural. It doesn't have any of the compositions that's perhaps some of the other more traditional coffins have, I would say, use anything like varnishes or metal or anything like that. And yeah, it breaks down, I can tell you because we can't use cat's floor for like, if I could've, I would make outdoor furniture or something with it, but you can't because it breaks down so quickly. So it's, it's absolutely perfect to go into the soil and it's also perfect to burn. People go, oh, why would you burn something so beautiful? And it's like, well, you are gonna burn a coffin, so why? Why actually pull down a tree? Why varnish wood? Why do all of those kind of things and put those into the atmosphere when you've got something that's invasive that's killing our native forest? And why wouldn't you just use that? So it's, it's perfect for all of those, those situations. You know, personally, like, you know that Victoria, you don't have to be buried in a coffin or burnt in a coffin in a, in New South Wales you do, I actually would love to see that people go in a shroud. I think that that's perfect opportunity for being as natural as possible. And I, I also am in the process of making shroud carriers and bearers so that basically it's a woven top and a base. The person goes in on the base and the top can be reused if they want, or it can go down with them, so, or into the ator with them. So. And maybe just talk through the difference between a, a coffin and a shroud and the shroud carrier for people who are unfamiliar with those differences. Okay. So a, a shroud carrier, basically shroud is where you are covered over in either a textile of some sort, and it, it could even be paperback, it could be possum, it could be cotton sheeting, it could be calico, it could be anything. It could be silk, wool, any of those kind of things. I mean, it could be polyester, but I wouldn't, I mean it could possibly even have a plastic one, but I'm obviously, it's not something that I'd be promoting. But yeah, so that a shroud is where the body is covered in material and. Then it goes onto a flat base and then, or some shroud carries, actually they're more like a bassinet or a, you know, the old hots. Yeah. So it has, um, a little bit of weaving and then a bit of a umbrella type thing on the top. Yeah. So, yeah. So Or old pram. The old prams actually. But a, yeah, I'm thinking the old woven bassinets that Yeah, yeah, yeah. With the little half. So that could be a strap carrier as well. But the ones that I'm intending on making are more. Where they are a base, and then I make a, a lead that's like an upside down coffin, but it's a hundred percent woven. There's no, um, yeah, there's a, a little bit of wood in the top section and that can be a personalized piece of wood as well. That doesn't have to be something that I choose. It can be whatever the family chooses and basically that can be taken off and the person could go into a cremator or be buried like that, or they could be taken off the base even and maded or buried that way. That's great. No, it's just some people may not be familiar with the, the difference between the two. So thank you so much for explaining that lid from on the top and a a shroud carrier is a flat base with a lid that comes off and that's more. It's like a butter dish is kind of like a way, that's a good way to explain it actually. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And tell me, I'd like to talk about that experience and that you see during your workshops about how people. Come into that experience and then sort of that sort of, I suppose, evolution or transition that you see with that, that collective creating and the difference that that makes that you see in people through your workshops. So there's three different types of workshops. So you've got the living wake, so that's family and friends and the community that come together. And then you've got like the, which, uh, like almost, it's almost a living weight, but it's a voluntary assisted dying where they come together and the person. Basically dies that weekend or that at that when their, the coffin's ready. And then you've got the public workshops. So the public workshops are quite different. So that's for people who are interested in talking to. Dying grief and care. And they also want to see if they, they're interested in making a coffin or to have the experience of making it weaving and talking and doing all those kind of things. All of them have profound experiences, I have to say. The public workshops, generally, someone in the public workshop is buying the coffin, or we donate it to an independent funeral director, a funeral company. So if it's going to someone in the workshop, they know who they're making it for, and. There's just, what a beautiful experience. People just are happy to weave and like I said, that we weaving 'cause it's so ancestral and because it, it's a rhythm. And when you start moving in a rhythm, which people who are dancers will know and people who weave. Is you drop to the natural rhythm that you actually have within yourself. And so it's actually incredibly nourishing. And then when you're talking about profound things like death, which most people don't get an experience or opportunity to talk about, then it, it just, it has this really deep, profound effect on people then that's quite different to those who come to a living weight where their person has been diagnosed. They know that they're not gonna survive forever, or they know that there is a limited time for that particular person. And so there is. Because it's so personal, because that person invited all those people to be there, and there is that time to talk about that person and all the experiences you have with that person. It also obviously drops to that really deep place where people are just reflecting on the gifts of that person, the gifts of life and, and the sadness that you go through. Knowing that that person might be there forever and that you're doing this as their last. Resting place and, and what I also find so beautiful about the living wakes is that sometimes the family live quite a distance away or they're not interacting with that person all the time, and they finally get to meet the neighbors or the. You know the community that this person, when they're talking on the phone would say, oh, yes, or such and such, did they, even these, the kids don't necessarily know who that person is because they don't live near the person who's dying. And so when they go to the funeral, instead of it being like, I think that's dad's neighbor, it's like, oh, that, that's who, whoever it is, who was at the weekend of leaving the coffin. So it creates a certain container of care, that person and for the family. Once that person goes. So that's pretty special. And then obviously voluntary assisted dying experiences. Those who are closest to that person are all together. And sometimes, you know, as everyone knows these days, not everyone gets on, especially families. They don't necessarily get on, but all of that gets put aside because it's that day that that person's gonna die and it's the thing that they're gonna make for this person to go into in a couple of hours time. So it just has this profound effect on people. And tell me, with the transition of your arts practice, what has it taught you? What have been the lessons for you, seeing you've been part of these amazing transformative experiences? What does it mean for you at the end of the day when you go, wow. You know, well, it's definitely given me a different perspective on deaf and dying and yeah, it, it also came at a time that my mother just went into nursing care, and so it's definitely, yeah, it's had that impact where it's like, okay, these are the things that I'm learn, like I'm learning so much about the deaf and deaf care industry and also about how I wanna go. I'm very much into the natural world, so I thought that. Maybe I'd go cremation, but since being in the deaf industry, not at all. I wanna be buried. I want to go back to the earth. That nourished me, and I want to go in the most natural way possible. And I, I, I'm very much an advocate for that and I talk about that a lot to people who come and think that they want to be cremated. I'll give them a few of the facts and, and the things that I know about information that I don't necessarily think most people don't understand or know about. So yeah, just go, yeah, please. This is why I'd go burial and this is why I'd go in a shroud if I can. Yeah. So with, um, your personal perspective in mind, can you share some of those, those things with us that you perhaps share with people? Yeah, so basically the resources that are used in information is. Intense. It can be anything from two to six hours to burn a body and or um, the coffin and everything. There's some things that I won't talk about that I've heard that I'm like, that is terrible. So the resources, then the pollution that goes into the atmosphere, even though there's filters. And I also hear that at some stage you're gonna try and reduce the use of gas informations because it's a resource that we don't have. And endless, or will we possibly do that? I dunno how much supplies we have, but yeah, it's a resource that they're very much thinking about and I just think, I've seen a few bodies go into a cremator and I'm like, that is so backwards. That is so, I, I won't talk about the secret things that they do because I'm just like, that is just so archaic. So I won't go into that. But yeah, it's mainly the resources. And the chemicals that go into the atmosphere. And like I said, I am much more into the burials. I'm working with Wall Way, which is Australia's first conservation burial site down south of Sydney. And basically they're going to bury bodies and let the forests slowly move towards those bodies and, and breaking down that way. And I, I can't think of anything better. Can't think of like, that's how we used to do it. Why wouldn't we continue doing that? It's interesting that you say that you changed your point of view about what you, you would like for your own end of life. What is it that really attracts you to the natural burial? Now, the fact, like I said before, that the earth has. Basically nourished us continuously. It's given us food, it's given us air, it's given us water, everything, every kind of goodness that's possible becomes a bush, Turkey. Everything that's possible for us to be healthy, the earth has given us. So why would we not go back to the earth and nourish it in, in the way that it's given to us, and all the rest of nature goes back into itself? It's this cycle. So why wouldn't you do that? It is interesting. I was very much always thinking that I would be cremated until I went overseas a few years ago and had the opportunity to look at two natural burial grounds in the uk. One with just like a forest that was just amazing. You'd expect fairies to pop out and Bambi to be walking past. It was just. Which is what follow my way will be. I, you know. And then, and then another one, which you, you'd probably be interested in as well was a organic dairy farm. They actually have a mobile dairy where the dairy goes to the cows, so it's not, the cows aren't treking on the same path to the dairy each time for less erosion and and destruction. And they're actually creating a natural burial ground to then become the bio corridor between two remnant. Pieces of forest that were existing from many years ago. And, and I just thought, wow, is this what it could possibly be Like? This is amazing. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, they were the things that, that struck me because you, you know, this was sort of over a few years ago now and, and there's more natural burial grounds and discussions that are having now, but at that stage, to see those two really well established was, yeah. Really aous firing. Absolutely. And like I said, Walla Way and Ella will be just like that. And also, you know, composting. I wouldn't mind going if, when, if composting comes to Australia. I think that that's also a really good way to do it just so that we break down naturally and that we become nourishment for the earth or for other things in nature, I think is a, just makes sense. It just doesn't seem to be a reason to burn our bodies.'cause you even, like when you, when you get the ashes, you can't. Put it in the ground and then plant a tree on it because the chemistry of the ashes just won't allow trees to grow. Yeah, there is one organization that I've been out to, which is Mornington Green on here in the Mornington Peninsula, and they actually have a chemical that they've devised, which actually neutralizes the acids in the ashes for their plantings. But you're right. You know, traditionally it has been a real issue for planting, you know, ashes and trees. They just don't mix the tree roots. And Simmy. What has been some of the biggest challenges you've found when you've, you've gone down your, your pathway of, of your eco-friendly coffins? Well, selling is a really hard thing to do when people are dying. Um, obviously, like people dunno when they're gonna die. First of all, most, most of the population don't dunno when they're gonna die, so they don't want to have a c. Hanging around, which I, I totally think is fair. I wouldn't either. And then when people are in that stage where they know they're gonna die, they don't talk about, and their families certainly don't wanna talk about, everyone wants to stay positive and they'll get through this and, you know, it's all, all okay. And then what I find really sad is that when it comes time that they actually have died and everyone's in grief, then. There's just too much grief going down to actually talk about what many of the, the sensible things or the things that would make sense to that person if, especially if they're an environmentalist or into natural things that, you know, if I couldn't go up to the family and say, Hey, look, I've got a coffin. How about me? You know, this, that and the other? Or even come and make a coffin in such grief that they can't face those kind of things. And then all it takes is just one of the family members to go, I am not doing that. For it to never happen. So I, I find that is a huge challenge. I'm selling coffins. It's, it's actually when I started the business, I thought I'll just make coffins and then I can just sell them. Especially, 'cause I live on the north coast of New South Wales, so I, I'm in the Byron Shire not far from Nien. So it's like everyone will be into it, surely. It's such a hard sell. It's a no-go zone really. So that's really hard. So that's, thankfully I got into doing the workshops and working and collaborating with deaf educators. So that really has changed my, it's turned the business around. But yeah, it's also given me more opportunity to talk deaf dying and care, and also help people become more educated through my collaborators. So, and they're, they're my advocates. So I, I can't, I literally can't go up to people and say, oh, look, I heard your mother had a stroke. I've got a coffin for you. You can do that. And tell me, what would you like to see people consider when they're going through the process? Is it more pre-planning? Is it more open conversations? You know, you, you mentioned earlier that there's so much you've learned about the death care industry since you started working in this space. What are some of those things where you'd like to see improved or. I think all of those things are happening and all of the machinery is in action and it's just a matter of people taking up on those, the offerings that are available. So yeah, I'd love everyone to have deaf education. I'd love everyone to start talking about it and for it not to be so taboo. But then, you know, when you're in the industry, it's not taboo.'cause everyone is in the industry. Talking about it, but it's, it's the general public and I guess, you know, that's after 150 years of indoctrination that death and dying is something that to be taken care of by someone else and you know, just hand it over and we'll deal with it. And also that whole, you know, don't talk about it because you jinx yourself. All of those superstitions that come with that. So yeah, I'd love people to. I think honestly and clearly about it, and just work with people. Like the people I collaborate with, my deaf educators. They're wonderful people and so everyone just needs to have one of them as a friend I think, or come to a workshop and and start talking about it. And if people have an interest in bark basket ba, here we go. Bark tree, um, basket tree, where could you encourage them to, to start learning? Where can people look? Okay, so there's associations in most states. Victoria has the basket makers of Victoria. You've got the South Australian basket makers, you've got basket makers of New South Wales, Tasmania, um, spinners and weavers in Queensland. So there's basket makers all over the place. Organizations. There's also a lot of people teaching. My recommendation is go with a teacher who forages their own material and who actually knows something about basketry. Because basket making is one of those industries or one of those areas where a lot of people do one workshop and they think that they're ready to teach and they know very little about it. They're buying their materials. They know nothing about the names of the natural materials or the techniques or anything, but there are some really good basket makers out there. So Instagram is a great way of finding people. But yeah, my recommendation is if you are looking for people, go for people who are collecting raw material and they generally have a little bit more knowledge than those who are purchasing material. But basketry is a really good start if you are wanting to make a weapon. Yeah. Get some basketry skills. Is there any other pearls of wisdom that you'd like to share that you've learned along the way? Zimmi well. Not pearls of wisdom. Have plenty of warnings, like the funeral industry isn't overly interested in people weaving their own coffins and the funeral industry is, as you, you, you would know far more than me with the people that you interview. Like it's run by, it's just been bought by a new company and it, most of the businesses are different arms of the one company, and so they're not very interested in. Green and there's a lot of greenwashing actually that goes on, like the whole basketry, sorry, the coffins that are coming from Asia, the willow coffins. I would get people to think seriously about that because you've got a material that's somebody else's resource coming all the way over the ocean and, and we all know that anything that comes into Australia that's a natural fiber gets sprayed with the most amount of toxic chemicals. So this green basket that you think that you are getting is not necessarily green. And also I do understand that the Willa that they're using in Asia is not natural material. It's not their native material. So they're importing and they're creating a monoculture and paying really low wages to their people. But also the fact, like I said, that it's coming all the way over the ocean and being sprayed to get into the country. And a lot of them have plastic lining. This green alternative isn't that green? And yeah, I'm, I think like I totally get the whole painting, cardboard, coffins, but then that also just, I can feel myself just like stab in the back because most of the paints are plastic and it won't break down. And it's just, especially cadmium and in the reds and all of the different colors have all of these different poisons in them. That, that also really does concern me that, and I know that it's a wonderful therapy for people to do that. It's just one of those things I just go, oh, really? It's not, it's not that green when you paint it, it's, yeah, you actually bring toxins back in the ground or into the atmosphere, which really worries me. So. No massive pearls of wisdom. If anyone's thinking of getting into weaving coffins, come and do a workshop with me and see what it's like because it's very time consuming. Like I said, there's about 60 hours of collecting and about 60 hours of weaving, so anyone who's really sensible, you won't get into it. It's just like it's, it's a crazy thing to be doing. It really is, but it's, yeah. My morals and ethics are. That things aren't about money. It's about doing the best thing for the planet. And so that's why I do what I do, but anyone who's interested in as a business will quickly decide that it's just not a good business. Yeah. But support people who do do these things. That's very true and, and I do really love how it all comes back to it based on your way of living and how you leave the footprint on the land that you are, you are walking on. And I think just even, even at the start when you were talking about how. The permaculture thoughts of you don't drive your car unless you've got three things that you're doing. So just even breaking down your everyday life and the way in which you think has been very insightful. Zimmi, I can't thank you enough for spending time with us today. Thank you, Catherine. Thanks for your interest and I hope that it, it is enlightening to some people and that Yeah, if people are interested, there's always like, I'm running workshops for the public and also running how to weave your own coffin workshop. And yeah, I'm the only one doing it in Australia. So please get in contact and talk to me and have a go and we will have all of your details listed in the show notes as well. So thank you so much again, Zimmi. I've really loved our chat today. Much appreciated. Thank you. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, brought to you by Critical Info. 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