The Gift of Life: Adele's Journey Through Grief and Organ Donation

What happens when your worst nightmare becomes your greatest gift to strangers? Adele shares the moment her son's death transformed into hope.

In this heartfelt episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I sit down with Adele, a mother who faced the unimaginable loss of her son, Dan, in 2020. Dan's tragic accident not only shattered Adele's world but also led to a powerful legacy of life through organ and tissue donation. Join us as we explore the profound impact of Dan's life and death, the importance of having conversations about organ donation, and how grief can transform into a celebration of life.

Adele shares her memories of Dan, a passionate musician with a heart of gold, who brought joy to everyone around him. From his childhood band practices with neighbourhood kids to his love for ska music and his time playing with Area-7, Dan's spirit shines through in every story. As we delve into the harrowing moments following Dan's accident, Adele recounts the surreal experience of receiving the news that no parent should ever have to hear. Her journey through grief is raw and real, highlighting the importance of cherishing every moment and the power of love and connection in the face of loss.

This episode is not just about loss; it's about legacy. Adele's decision to honour Dan's memory through organ donation has given life to others, and she reflects on the profound impact this has had on her family. We discuss the importance of having open conversations about death and dying, and how preparing for the inevitable can bring peace of mind. Adele's story is a testament to resilience, love, and the enduring bonds that connect us, even in the face of unimaginable grief.

Key points from our discussion:

• The importance of discussing organ donation and end-of-life wishes with loved ones.
• How grief can transform into a celebration of life and legacy.
• The profound impact of organ donation on both the donor's family and the recipients.
• Tips for supporting someone who is grieving and navigating the complexities of loss.

Resources Mentioned:

DonateLife - Learn more about organ donation and how to register.

Area 7 Band links:

https://www.instagram.com/area7.ska/

Are your affairs in order? Critical Info helps you organise essential documents in just 10 minutes a day. Sign up now for early access! → criticalinfo.com.au/critical-info-platform

Lost a loved one? Our guide walks you through the next steps, from the first hours to the months ahead. Download it here → criticalinfo.com.au/product/my-

Contact Catherine

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Podcast Editor: https://www.livvimusic.com/

Music composer: Ania Reynolds - https://www.aniareynolds.com/

Transcript

0:01

Oh, it was difficult. I mean, I keep looking at him and I kept thinking, any minute he's just gonna sort of get up and say, yeah, I fool you. Like, 'cause he did have a wicked sense of humor and loved to play tricks. And so I think over those ensuing days, just seeing how he was, I slowly came to accept that yes, he was definitely not surviving this and. If he wasn't going to survive, then maybe the best thing that we could do is to give life to someone else. Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead. A podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life. Because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared. Don't be caught dead. Acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations and recognizes their connection to land, sea, and community. We pay our respects to their elders past, present, and emerging. And extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. Today I'm speaking with Adele. Adele, sadly lost her son, Dan in 2020, and Dan went on to transform many lives through organ donation and tissue donation. Thank you so much for speaking with us today, Adele. Thank you Catherine. Thank you for inviting me. So Adele, tell us a little bit about Dan. Oh, there is so much that I could say. He was an amazing man. He was very kindhearted, great sense of humor. But I suppose the thing that defined him the most was his love of music. And that was evident from the time that he was quite young. So even as like I'd say a. 5-year-old, he would grab the neighborhood kids and set up a band and he would use his toy box as the drum kit and an extension cord as the microphone, and he'd have all the other kids set up with instruments of various sorts and, and he was very persistent around wanting to learn the drums. And so he started having lessons at quite a young age, and we bought him a drum kit for his eighth birthday and. We used to travel quite a bit too, 'cause we live regionally, so we had to travel quite a bit to get him to music lessons. But it was just a lifelong passion that remained with him right up until he died. He has a great knowledge of music and he was also very clear about what he liked and what he didn't like. For example, on Christmas day, we would only hear scar music. Wow. That's not everyone's melodic tune choice on Christmas day, is it? No, certainly not. And not mine, but we would all go along with it.'cause he would just, yeah. Take over the music for the day. So, and my other kids all remember that as a very fond memory of Dan and Christmas Day. And how many other children was, was Dan the youngest? The oldest, the middle child? Was he an only child? He's the, um, eldest of four. And was he the first death in the family? Well, I'm not quite sure how to answer that. My dad died in 1997, so that's quite some time ago. My young nephew in CAIRs suicided 14 years ago. So while Dan wasn't the first death there, I don't think there's anything that can prepare you for the loss of a child. I dunno whether you saw the Nick Cave interview recently on the A, B, C. It was very powerful, wasn't it? It was very powerful and his words really struck me around. He was talking about his wife and her reaction 'cause they have lost two sons and he was saying that he thinks it's very different for women and I can't comment on. It's like for fathers because I'm not one, but you know, as a mother you carry that child within your body. You grow another human and they're part of you from, you know, like as soon as you know you're pregnant, you are relating to that child. From that moment, I think certainly was the case for me with all of mine. And so it's a very sort of unique relationship, but also then a very profound loss. I used to always say that I think the worst loss I could imagine would be losing a child. And I, yeah, I never thought it would be me. And are you comfortable talking about when you got the notification that Dan had had an accident? Look, we were at home, it was a Saturday night and to get a call from Dan at, you know, at eight 30 on a Saturday night was pretty unusual. So I answered the phone.'cause usually be out, especially someone that you know has a love of music that is very striking. Ah, well also it was during COVID, so I think there was still some restrictions on people's movement. But as Steve o, the lead singer in the band has said, Dan was always the first to arrive at a party and the last to leave. I received this call from him and he said that he'd had a fall and that he had hurt his head and that these kind people had come to his aid and were staying with him and waiting for the ambulance to arrive. And so we chatted for a bit and I said to him, look, as soon as you get in the ambulance, please let me know where they're taking you, and then we will head down.'cause we had about an hour and a quarters drive ahead of us, but I didn't hear back. Then about 10 30, we were unsure whether we, you know, should go to bed, should we make our way to Melbourne, what to do. And then we got a call from the Royal Melbourne to say that he had been admitted there and that it was quite serious and that we should make our way down, and that the neurosurgeon was looking at the scans that they'd taken and would be in touch with us. And so we were only about 15 minutes into the journey when. The neurosurgeon rang and that she had looked at the scans and she was very sorry to tell me that it was unsurvivable and I, I couldn't believe it. And I said to her, I only spoke to him a couple of hours ago after his accident, and given the amount of brain damage that he sustained in the fall, she couldn't believe it. She couldn't believe that he came to, 'cause he was unconscious. About five minutes after the fall, and then somehow the people who came to his aid were able to get his phone and must have gotten his pin and he wanted to ring me. So I feel very fortunate that I heard like his last words and I would've heard his first words when he was just the baby. So it was incredible, and the doctor could not believe that he was able to even speak. And just even thinking about the logistics of that, Adele, the fact that someone had to actually get into his phone and then make that phone call and then him to be able to speak to you directly, that is unbelievable. Yeah, it is. He lost consciousness as soon as he got into the ambulance, and then I think because he was then critical, they re diverted and so, you know, then we knew where to go. So then on the trip down, I'm busy ringing his father, my other children. Stan's ex-wife who was in Queensland. So there was a part of me that was sort of functioning almost on autopilot thinking I had to let these other people know we had to get to the hospital. But there was another part of me that was still quite disbelieving of it. I think because of this recent conversation I'd had with him, I thought, I don't think I quite believe it until I could see him and once I saw him, of course it was very believable. And are you comfortable talking through that process of when you saw him and then the conversations that were had thereafter about the possibility of donating? Yes, certainly. So he was in a and E when we arrived, and then they moved him up to Ward. And because of all the COVID, well, COVID was still rife and the community at that time, he had to have a COVID test and be isolated before we could see him again. So they scheduled a meeting with us the next day and said, come back. So his father and I went up to ICU and we could look at him through a window, but we couldn't go into the room again once he was moved up there. And so the hospital scheduled a medical meeting the next day with all of us. And it was interesting though, I went to see him before the meeting and there was something different about him, like. I knew then that he'd gone. There was something different about, I mean, he was still on life support and you know, still having a ventilator, keeping him alive. But I didn't feel that Dan, like his essence or his spirit, whatever you want to call it, was still there. I felt he'd gone. And when I mentioned this to the doctor, he said, well, it's actually quite observant of you, because he said that would've been the case that the brain trauma was so significant that, you know, it just would've, his brain would've bled out slowly. So by the time I saw him the next day, there would not have been any brain activity. So in that medical meeting, look, the staff, I can't. Talk highly enough about how wonderful they were at the Royal Melbourne. And I remember the doctor saying to me, did he ever talk to you about his last wishes? And I thought he meant funeral arrangements, but for some reason, that's where my mind went. And he said, no. He said, I, I mean about organ donation. And we all looked at each other and said, well, no, he, he never had that conversation with us. I suppose it's probably not a conversation that people have enough. But we were all unanimous and all in agreement that it would be exactly what Dan would want because he was so kindhearted and so generous and so thoughtful about others that we just we're all in agreement that if he could have given permission, he would. And when you say we, Adele, it was yourself. And who else was part of that decision making process? So Dan's father, my husband Michael, and my other three children, their partners and Dan's ex-wife who'd just come down from Queensland. And what was it like to go through that process of deciding and then from what happens thereafter? I remember it all really clearly. Actually. They did a very good job explaining the process and also said to us that if one person wasn't in agreement with the decision, that they wouldn't go ahead. We either all needed to be in or it didn't happen. So I'm very grateful that we were all in. And then from there, I think there must have been another meeting scheduled with someone from the Donate Life team. Maybe the next day. And there was also then a medical like interview that happened with Dan's ex-wife and me because you know when your child's at that age, I mean, Dan was just a few days before his 48th birthday. You don't know the ins and outs of your child's medical history at that age. Mm-hmm. So she participated in that medical interview with me. Because they won't take organs unless they're 100% sure that it's going to be, well, hopefully success. They'll only take organs that are functioning well and that have the best hope of survival, I suppose, upon transplanting. So there were a whole series of tests then that needed to be done on his various organs and also asking us what we would agree to have taken. So. We donated his heart, his two kidneys. So his heart has given life to someone. His two kidneys allowed two people to come off dialysis. His eyes have given sight to people. We also agreed to skin tissue and bones being removed if needed. So, you know, for chemotherapy patients, burns victims, there's lots of different ways that. Different parts of his body were used and have made a difference to people. And tell me, what was it like navigating your grieving process through that time? Oh, it was difficult. I mean, I would keep looking at him and I kept thinking any minute he was just gonna sort of get up and say, yeah, fool you. Like, 'cause he did have a wicked sense of humor. And loved to play tricks. And so I think over those ensuing days, just seeing how he was, I slowly came to accept that yes, he was definitely not surviving this. And if he wasn't going to survive, then maybe the best thing that we could do is to give life to someone else. And the medical staff were amazing in terms of their treatment of him. And I remember at one stage a nurse came in to check. One of the lines that was going into his hand, and she pulled off the bandaid a bit firmly and she rubbed his hand and she said, oh, I'm so sorry Dan. Like treating him very respectfully. And the other thing that I didn't know is that when people go to theater to have their organs retrieved that they give them a full anesthetic. And I hadn't realized that. And when I asked why, given that, you know, there was no brain activity, they said, well, they treat people just as they would if they were. Going in for any medical procedure, it's the same sort of treatment in terms of an anesthetic, and I suppose it also means that the person doesn't move in any way. But I was quite impressed with how sensitively it was handled. So over the course of the day, from the Saturday through to the following midweek when he went off to theater, we had lots of opportunity to spend time with him, sit with him, talk about him, talk to him, play his favorite scar music. Look, I sort of remember almost every day really. And each year at the anniversary of when he fell and it was like a week then from when he fell to when he is, when he went to theater, almost a week each year, it's, I find it quite an incredible that I go through the same sort of. Visceral reliving of it takes me by surprise each year. And given that it was so close to his birthday too, that must also perhaps compound that experience. Yes, it does. Each year we, I mean, we all remember the day he died, but we all celebrate and started the band. Actually, they all celebrate his birthday. You know, we get together as a family, we go out to dinner. We remember him talk about him. I mean, we talk about him often, often. And do you think that that period of time that you refer to from when you knew that he was brain dead to the time in which he was operated on for the donation process, do you think that ability to sit with him and spend time with him has helped the family through this process? Oh yes. I think so. Yeah. I mean. It's not easy losing a child, but you know, it's happening to people all the time. And I, in many ways, I feel grateful that we had nearly 48 years with him. People lose children at a very young age. People lose children before they're even born. Look at Dan's funeral. I had quite a few family members and extended family members talk to me about the still birth that they'd had. And, you know, losing infants from cancer at a very young age. And you sort of think, well. None of us are immune to it. None of us are protected from grief, from loss. It's part of life. You can't have life without death and you can't have death without life. That is very true. And as Dan was the eldest of the four, how have you seen this experience impact his siblings? I think what it has done for all of us is an appreciation of life, and that life is so short and. If you don't pay attention to the here and now and live in the moment and live your life in a way that's meaningful for you and meaningful for others, then what's the point? So I think for us, it's made us appreciate what we have. Like we miss him every day and wish that he was, you know, still alive, you know, to see his niece and nephew grow up, which he just adored. He never had children of his own, but he loved kids and he would love to see them growing into the young teenagers that they are. So I think they've all dealt with his death in different ways.'cause their relationship with him varied. I mean, my youngest talked about at, he didn't speak at Dan's funeral, somebody read it out on his behalf. But he said if ever he was having any issues in his love life, Dan would be the one that he'd go to talk to. He's like a big brother that would give him some wise advice. It's so true what you were saying is that it is so dependent on the relationship that you actually have while they're alive because that will continue when they die. That doesn't change. Yeah. Does it? No, it doesn't. It doesn't change. And you mentioned the word legacy. Not many people can create music or leave a legacy where their music can be listened to, and Dan was part of a band and he recorded music and it can be listened to. How does that feel that there's, that's the legacy that's left behind? Well, I find it very comforting, very reassuring for a long time after he died and. I had trouble sleeping. I would often play YouTube videos of the band and watch him in his heyday and his element, and I found it very comforting, actually very comforting. I still love scar music even today. And. I have on my Spotify playlist, I have all his favorite songs that I will often listen to. The band that he played with Area seven, they remember him in so many ways. Like his photo is still up there on their Facebook page. There are many music festivals that have been held where they dedicate a stage to him. About a year or year, about 18 months or so after he died, they, and once COVID had lifted, of course they had a fundraising gig. At the Corner Hotel in Richmond, and uh, we as a family decided to auction his gum and his drum kit and the proceeds went to Support Act, which is a, a charity that supports. Anyone involved in the music industry who's either going through illness or a hard time. And so the proceeds of the night from that event and also the proceeds from the selling bees drum kit went to support act. So, and there were so many musicians from lots of different bands, you know, the Living End, you name it, who came and wanted to get up on stage and perform that night in memory of Dan. It was a great night. So yeah, he lives on lots of ways. Well, I think I let you know that, that I'm a child of the nineties, Adele, so I remember Dan's music in Area seven and it is a time capsule 'cause it, they were very big when, you know, you could only hear music and local music on Triple J or through, hey, hey, at Saturday and Molly Meldrum. On the show, you know, introducing new bands and on rage or, or smash hits, it's, it's not, certainly not like with the flood of platforms and, and ways in which we can access new music now. So it really is also a reference to a time capsule and period that is certainly due to my heart as well. Yes, you're right. It, it was a different era in terms of how music was listened to and, and recorded. And, and the band were also invited to go to East Timor by the soldiers who were on tour there. And that was a very momentous time for all of the band members. And I'm sure that must be challenging to honor that legacy when one of the members is no longer with the group due to to death. You mentioned that you. Get together every anniversary. Can you tell us a little bit about what that looks like and, and how you memorialize Dan in your sort of everyday life? Well, the first year we went to one of his favorite restaurants, Dan was the vegetarian and loved animals. Certainly wouldn't eat meat, so. We went to a Middle Eastern restaurant that specialized in various vegetarian food, but I can't remember. We've done something every year and every year. It varies just depending on how we are feeling. I think last year we met at one of my other kids' homes and because it was a little more intimate, and that's what we find, it's much easier to talk about him in a more personal space than it is in a restaurant. So. Look, we get together and we will eat the food that he liked, and we'll play the music that he liked and talk about him and talk about what's gone on in people's lives that he would've loved to have known about and seen. And recently my daughter turned 50 and I said to her, wouldn't Dan love to have been alive to give you a hard time about being middle aged? So yeah, things like that, we, it's part of, I suppose, every family get togethers that we have. And Adele, you've experienced this as a mother whose son has been able to give the gift of donating their organs. You've also experienced it from another side as well, haven't you? Yes. Well, yeah, it's, I think it's a bit unusual to be both the, the mother of a donor and also a family member of somebody who has needed a heart transplant. So. About a year ago, my brother-in-law, he had been sick for a long time and in and out of hospital for a long time, was then told that he needed a heart transplant and he was very ill towards, in the lead up to his transplant, like really sick. You know, they told him he probably only had a couple of more weeks to live. His heart was failing so badly and he's. Early sixties, and, and I found that I was, I suppose the journey for me as a family member, I was sharing that with, with so many other family members. But it was different for me because there was something about I needed him to survive. I needed this new heart in him to survive and keep on working.'cause I somehow, in my mind, thought, well, if Brad survives, then Dan's recipient will survive. You know, like, I can't quite explain. That connection in my mind, but I was just so willing him to get well and get through this. And of course there are so many hurdles for people who receive a transplant. It's not just a case of getting a new organ and you know they're right in a week or two because usually their bodies are. Have started to shut down because major organs are starting to fail. So it takes a long time for the body to get used to new blood supply, new organ. And there's lots of hurdles. Like I know Brad had to go on dialysis for a while just until his kidneys sort of caught up, but now a year later, like he's back at work. He's going to the football tomorrow night with my husband, like he is really, well, it's been an absolute miracle and so it gave me a new appreciation for the struggle that Dan's heart recipient and maybe his kidney donors as well. I dunno, I've only had contact with his heart recipient. It just made me realize what a struggle it is to get from the time of the, the surgery to being really well and, and being able to get back into one's life again. It's such a U unique perspective that you have really, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I must say it's been extremely comforting for me and for all the family to have received the letters that I have from Dan's heart recipient. So I couldn't even bear to write to her until a good year or so afterwards, and I had to, 'cause I was really worried that she hadn't survived and I think something in me would've died. Again, if that had been the news. So I reached out to donate Life and they encouraged me to write to her. So I write anonymously to donate life. They write to the or they send the letter on to the transplant team who then give it to the recipient. So there's lots of checks and balances to make sure that everybody remains confidential and anonymous. But her letters have been amazingly comforting. To hear and to read about, you know, the new lease of life that it has given her, how grateful she is, the things in her life that she's been able to get back into seeing her first grandchild born. You know, it's pretty amazing. I think sometimes we can take it quite lightly when you say organ donation and you know, giving some back, someone back their life. But when you actually say things like seeing her grandchild grow up. Yes. That is very much a different context when you actually say that this is not just a statistic, this is the difference that it makes to someone's life and what they can see. Yeah. Yes. Well, and the same with Brad. I can just see what a difference it's made to him. I mean, he is fit and well, and. Active and still bar for Collingwood. Mind you, he hasn't changed there. But to see him go from being so sick to so well, it really is incredible. Really is. It's an absolute miracle. And what would you say to other families who may have a loved one who has had an accident and they face the same decision making process? What would you say to them? I'd certainly say considerate. I mean, I suppose every family situation is unique and their feelings about it would vary. I think there's a lot of maybe myths about organ donation. Like there is somebody in my own family, extended family who said that they would find it hard to tick the box for organ donation because they were worried that they mightn't be dead. And so I think that, you know, the percentage of people who can actually donate or in a position to donate is quite small. I think it's only like one or 2%. So you basically need to be in hospital on life support to be eligible to donate an organ. And so it's not that they go out there taking organs from people who are still alive and there's, you know, like. Dan had to have a brain scan that had to be checked off by two different doctors, and so that all has to happen prior to the surgery. So there's, there's lots of steps along the way, but I would say for anyone who's considering it, talk to the hospital staff, talk to somebody from the Donate Life team, and just make your decision based on what you think your loved one would've wanted. It was quite easy for us when we focused on what Dan would've wanted. Has the experience changed how your wishes are documented now? Has have people changed within the family to become donors? How has that experience changed how you planned for end of life? Has it changed you? I don't know. Oh, yes. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I, I certainly ticked the box. Well, I had done even before Dan died. But yeah, the others all have it as well. And, and also again, it's also around thinking about end of life and things such as the will. He didn't have a will, and that makes life a bit harder. The loved ones afterwards sorting out matters, and because his father and I were. He's next to kin and his father wasn't very well. So a lot of that fell to me. And it, it's difficult at a time where you're grieving, you know, going in and closing bank accounts and closing Netflix accounts and, you know, all of those sort of things. There's so many things that just are a reminder that they've died that are, it's like a, a stab in your heart every single time, but it has to be done. What would you suggest to people that they should do to perhaps, you know, is it have a conversation? Is it making sure they're a donor? What do you think may have made things easier for you in the situation you found yourself in? Because I think that sometimes when we have a life limiting illness and a diagnosis, there is some sort of timeframe and there's more of a framework around it. But when it's an accident, it's very, very different. It is very different. Well, I think people should actually talk about it, have conversations with people, and I do think a lot of people find it hard. I mean, it is very hard to think about our own non-existence, but I think the biggest favor that you can do for your loved ones is to be prepared, have a will let people know what's in the will so that there's no surprises at the end. Particularly like for us, we've got a blended family, so they all know that they're gonna be treated equally. And you know, my kids know exactly, you know, like I want a quarter of my ashes buried with Dan. They know that. So yeah, I still, I just think have the conversation as hard as it is. And how has Dan's donations framed your view on legacy now? I suppose I'm surprised that, you know, we don't do it more, we don't consider it more, we don't. I suppose you're not really forced to until you're put in the situation, but his legacy, I think, has helped us all to, you know, appreciate the life that we give him. And as far as we know, we only get one go at it. So yeah, just make the most of the life that you give him, live it in the best way that you can with as much integrity as you can. You know, be kind. Care for others.'cause you never know. I mean, we know the day of our birth, but unless you are maybe going through voluntary euthanasia, nobody knows the day of their death. You dunno when it's coming. So make the most of life, and my husband and I have a bit of a saying to each other. If not now, when I really like that. If there's something you wanna do, do it now. You know, because you don't know. That's beautiful, Adele. There is one. One other thing I would like to say about grief that I read somewhere that I think is very true, that your grief doesn't diminish. It doesn't listen over time, particularly with the loss of a child. But what happens is that you grow around it. You learn to go on and you live your life without that person, but still with their memory with you. But you in a sense become. More of who you have the potential to be. I suppose you, you just, yeah, I suppose that's the best way to describe it. You grow around it. You become more, to enable you to go on with your life, despite enduring, unimaginable loss. Do you think it's because you are stripped back to the bare essentials during that time of vulnerability? I think so the most raw, like for the first 12 months, I, many times I thought I was, you know, losing my mind or I was, you know, like my grief was just so raw. I couldn't talk about Dan without bursting into tears. And of course a lot of people reach out and I found it really hard to be telling the story over and over again. And so it was just easier for a while to be with those who had been part of the journey, like family members and. Really close friends because it's just hard. It's just hard getting through it. Okay? And there's that small moment when you wake up in the morning. A lot of people talk about it where just for a moment you've forgotten. It's not there front and center of your mind. And then of course it all comes flooding back. But for that nanosecond, the loss and, and the pain that you're going through is not there, even just for a small. Fleeting moment, but I don't know, it just becomes, you just find a way to survive it and to manage it and to live with it. You have to if you want to live your life. And did you receive any support around that process after Dan's death? Yeah. The people from Donate Life were fantastic. So I had a couple of conversations with people throughout that time with lots of close friends, the family. My husband, he was a great support that I, I just said to him last night how much I appreciated the fact that he came with me. I wanted to see Dan after he'd come back from theater after they had retrieved his organs. It was, I don't know, because when he was wheeled away, he was still on a ventilator. He still looked very much alive. And I think for myself, I just needed to fully accept that he was dead. I needed to see him after, and the hospital were very sensitive around preparing me for how he would look. They allowed us to sit with him for as long as we needed to. They also informed us that because he died in a public place, he fell in public, you know, on a footpath, that the police would be coming to collect his body and to be taken to the coroner's court, which is the process that happens if somebody dies in public. But they allowed us that time, and that was important for me. So I suppose that would be the other thing is to ask for what you need if you are. In this situation, ask for what you need to sit with a person for as long as you need. And if you need to be there through the various stages, just ask. And I say that that would be the same principle when you are sort of, you're talking through that, that very dark period. In that time afterwards where, you know, you were saying that your network got smaller 'cause it was easier just to, you didn't wanna keep telling the story over and over. Yes, and I felt like a bit of a recluse. I didn't really feel like going out and talking to people anyway. So it was just easy to be with people who were part of the journey and were experiencing the pain and loss as well. And speaking from someone who is in that space. How can people around you who are not in that inner circle, but perhaps just a circle removed, how can they support you during something like that? Just listen. Just be there. Make a meal. The last thing you feel like doing is well, and I love to cook, but the last thing I felt like doing was thinking about what to have for dinner. And not that I felt like I didn't have much appetite anyway, but you just need people to listen and you certainly don't need people changing the subject or trying to make you feel better. Whatever form that might take, because nothing is gonna take away the pain. You just need to be able to talk about them, if that's what you want to do. And it's much easier for somebody to say to you, look, I can't imagine what it is that you are feeling at the moment, or, I can't imagine what this is like for you, but I'm here. That's all you need to hear. Adele, I can't thank you enough for sharing your story with us today, and I really like those parting words. I think that's very, very fitting. Yeah. Thank you. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, brought to you by Critical Info. If you liked the episode, learn something new, or were touched by a story you heard, we'd love for you to let us know. Send us an email, even tell your friends. Subscribe so you don't miss out on new episodes. If you can spare a few moments, please rate and review us as it helps other people to find the show. Are you dying to know more? Stay up to date with. Don't be caught Dead by signing up to our newsletter and follow us on social media Head to Don't Be Caught dead.com for more information and loads of resources.