Living Well to Die Well: A Philosophical Perspective

In this thought-provoking episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I sit down with Dr. Simon Longstaff, a philosopher and the first executive director of the Ethics Centre. We dive deep into the complexities of life, death, and everything in between. Simon shares his unique journey, from his early days on Groot Island to his profound connection with the Anindilyakwa people, and how these experiences have shaped his understanding of ethics, community, and the essence of a good life.

We explore the idea that a good death is intrinsically linked to a good life, and how our experiences—both joyful and challenging—contribute to who we are. Simon offers insights into the ethical dilemmas surrounding voluntary assisted dying, the importance of truth and compassion in our final moments, and the role of community in shaping our understanding of life and death. This episode is a heartfelt reminder that while we may not be ready to die, we can certainly prepare ourselves for the inevitable.

Key points from our discussion:

• The significance of community and kinship in understanding life and death.
• The ethical complexities surrounding voluntary assisted dying and suicide.
• How our experiences shape our perspectives on death and dying.
• The importance of living authentically and with intention to ensure a good death.
• The impact of technology and AI on our understanding of mortality and memory.

Resources Mentioned:

Ethics Centre: Ethics Centre Website

Black Dog Institute: Black Dog Institute Website

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,

Catherine

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Transcript

0:01

I just think that whoever you are at any point in time is the sum total of all of those experiences. Some you might have preferred not to have had, but you can't sort of cherry pick from your life. You can't say, oh, I only want all the fun bits and none of the tough bits, because you wouldn't be you without that total amalgam bringing about the unique perspective that you hold at any point in time as a person. Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life. Because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared. Don't be caught dead acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations and recognizes their connection to land, sea, and community. We pay our respects to their elders past, present, and emerging. And extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. Today I'm speaking with Dr. Simon Longstaff. Simon began his working life on Groot Island in Northern Territory Australia. Simon is proud of his kinship ties with the Anindilyakwa people. After a period of studying law in Sydney and teaching in Tasmania, he pursued postgraduate studies as a member of the Mortal and College Cambridge. In 1991, simon commenced his work as the first executive director of the Ethics Center. I. In 2013, he was made an officer of the order of Australia for distinguished service to the community through the promotion of ethical standards in governance and business, to improving corporate responsibility and to philosophy. Simon is an adjunct professor at the Australian Graduate School of Management at UNSW. A fellow of CPA Australia, the Royal Society of New South Wales, and the Australian Risk Policy Institute. Thank you so much for actually sparing the time to be with us today, Simon. I. Well, it's lovely to be with you now. I've been a member of the Ethics Center for over a year or so now. Mm-hmm. And I had the opportunity to meet you in person at one of the Melbourne gatherings. I am fascinated to hear about your ties with the Anindilyakwa people of Group Island. How did that start? Well, when I went to boarding school, 'cause my mother had died when I was very young and. I finished school very early. I finished when I was 16, and as you know, going to a private boarding school is a very expensive cost for a family, and so I was told at the end of my schooling when 16, that that was it. In a sense, my family had given me all that they were going to give me in terms of an investment in my future. And anything I was to do from that point on, which I had to fund myself now, I'd kicked around in Outback Queensland in places like SRA and Tambo and John Deere. So I knew how to fence and plow and muster sheep and sweep the board and things like that. But I didn't have any really useful skills that were making me employable. So the job I got was as a service attendant, which is just a big title for a cleaner up on Grote Island, which is a manganese mine, which at that time we seen a company called Gemco, owned by BHP. And that's where I started. Um, actually by the time I got on the island, I think I'd been 17 for three days and. That's a very remote part of Australia, and particularly in the mid 1970s, it was a, a place very vulnerable in one sense because. Uh, there were very few services, uh, in fact there were so little government service that you got what was called a zone allowance to take account of the fact that you weren't getting all of the things normally provided by governments to citizens. But it was also a bit of a rough place too, because I. Back then, the mine itself was pretty much, I think it was exclusively men working, at least in wages roles. There was a pruning operation at a place called Barumba Bay, which was wild as anything you could find. And anyway, here I'm a 17-year-old in that I. Very grown up world with some skills. Yeah. That one learns in boarding school'cause that's where you learn to survive. Particularly if you're a little squeaky person like I was because everybody else was 18 and you know, had beards, things like that. Yeah. When school was finished and I was a squeaky little short person. Uh, anyway, in that sense of vulnerability, the aboriginal people there, the Anindilyakwa people, a number of them got to know me and they adopted me and I. Adopted me specifically into the LA clan, and I was given an indigenous name and totem and all the other things that come with that. And then the relationship just blossomed. And, and, and I, they, there were a few things they wanted me to do. One was to come back there to die. I. They felt that there's something they saw in me or what I could be or something of that kind, and they took a lot of time to teach me how to see properly, for example, in the way they see the world, rather than through my conditioned baller eyes that the kind of the white people and. It is a relationship which is endured for many decades. In fact, I'll be back up there in a few weeks time, and there's still a very important piece of business that has to be done because of my totem. It extends from the island and the archipelago across to the mainland. It's one of the stories from the dreaming that join up, and I'm supposed to have two names, one for my island name and one for my mainland name, and I haven't got my mainland name yet, which means going across to a place called. And there's a bit of ceremony and things like that. And there's also a particular gift that was left to me by one of the most influential of those indigenous men in my life. When he died. He, he said that there had to be three bark paintings produced using traditional methods of bark and ochre. Which are my totem telling that story for me to have. And that's yet to happen and that's because of, there's a lot of complication about who can tell that story, how it gets produced, and the ceremony around me being able to receive it. So it's a really fascinating part of life. It's been very confronting in some ways because I had him, you know, like major imposter syndrome for a very long time about how could I be accepted into this society. With all of its depth and complexity and it's incredibly complex world, and yet have come from no kind of blood relation or anything. And yet, eventually they pressed upon me so forcefully that I really did belong, that I've accepted it, and every now and then I feel a bit of a flaw when I'm out in this wider world with these kinship ties. But I carry them with me in a very deep way. Ever since that moment when I was taken in. And when you say that you learned how to look at the world through their eyes and how they view things, what is the difference that you see between your everyday eyes and, and when you return to that space, what? What is the difference that you were encouraged to look at? I see the whole world now as they do. I've carried that with me ever since. It's a very profound difference and it explains a lot of things about the kind of misunderstandings and clash that takes place across these two cultures. So. The way they taught me, they took me to the end of the ship loading wharf at a place called Ali Anangula, and we got out there and they said, look, we're gonna teach you how to see dolphins. I thought, well that's okay. So they said, can you see the, the dolphins? Like you say bungee, you know, kinda like brother friend, can you see the dolphins? And I looked down, I said, no, I can't see the dolphins. They said, have a long look. See if you can see the dolphins. So I looked down and I said to, can you see the dolphins? I said, no, I can't see the dolphins. They said, ah, bungee. The problem is, you know, what you're doing is you're trying to see the dolphins. Ha. And that's the kinda this, this laughter breaks out. It's, it's a really infectious laughter, like, got you, you fool. That sort of thing. Anyway, once they'd finished laughing at me, they said, yeah, the problem is that the baller way of seeing things is that you look for the dolphins in the water as things that are in the water. So the way I would distinguish this is that I'd been brought up to see things either in or on or beside. There's a discreet object that might be a cup sitting on a table, and they said, that's not how you see. They said, what we see is we see patterns. Everything's all one thing, and there's a pattern that's made by a. The water without a dolphin. And there's another pattern, which is with the dolphins in it. And what you've gotta do is see the whole thing. And I've talked to other indigenous people around Australia. I'm not sure if I've had many conversations about this with indigenous people I know overseas, but certainly in Australia. And this is something which seems to be common, that, you know, you spot a, a kangaroo not by looking for the kangaroo, but by the pattern that such a thing makes in the world. And so it is. A really holistic way of seeing, and I, I was actually, I didn't realize how much this had affected me until I was doing an interview with Richard Fidler one day for the conversation hour on a BC radio national, and I was talking about how I. So much of what I bring to bear in the work that I do as a philosopher is about spotting patterns. And suddenly I thought, oh my God. Now that's, where did that come from? That came from the lesson I was taught and which then had to master at the end of the war for Ali and Gula and. So much of my capacity to be effective had been on the back of that way to see, and so I've brought this much stronger sense of holistic nature of the world, the patterns that it makes. I wouldn't be a patch on people who've lived their whole life doing this. I mean, I'm pretty good at it, but not as good as. As the mob he taught me. But it's been transformative and I think that's one of the wonderful gifts that the societies that arrived, uh, and colonized this continent tap into. And that's probably the saddest part of. What I've seen in my life is that here I was given this incredible opportunity, which demonstrates the generosity of people to say, come on, be part of this. There are things to learn. There are things we want to give you, and this isn't about us versus you. It's about what we could all be together. And I know it's easy to say that and it trips off the tongue and people dismiss it, but it's actually a really profound and generous gift, which so far has not been taken up. And I think that was one of the tragedies of the debate about the voice. People never really understood that this was not about giving something to indigenous people. It was actually an offer for us all to be something better refined in some ways by melding together truly that experience and understanding of the 65,000 years or so of. Inhabiting this continent and then what we could also offer, but that chance was missed. It really was. And it's interesting, I had the privilege of traveling to Newland Boy and then further on to Dura Piby and being on country there due to a family reconciliation ceremony that was as went through an anniversary recently. And what struck me about traveling through that country is that. There is so much pride in culture and it really is the embodiment of what it means to live on country and be country, and it was really quite a moving experience for me to be in that area. Well, you caught the cadence of it in the second way. It's not being on country, it's being off country. That's the thing. Everything is related and so. As you'd know, I mean, and of course the mob viewer with her, all part of joined up coming down to group. That's where the songlines all travel, or some of them at least. And the whole world is broken into two, two moieties literature and doer, the white cockatoo, black cockatoo. And so everybody is literally related to everything. And it's not just animals and plants, although the obvious things. There's also a connection with. The country, the rocks, they carry a kind of significance. And again, that's that holistic element to it. I was recently over in the foothills of the Andes and they have something similar there. The Ware and the Amara people, they both break the world into male and female in that case. So it's, again, there's a kind of duality of it, but it's all connected together. It's only, it's a bit like the yin and yang. You only get. The whole by recognizing how these different elements relate together and it really is a sense of relationship rather than seeing earth or country or whatever as something to be exploited or a possession, as you know, as you've experienced, it's much more organic. And again, you know, some people I think in the West are fearful of that because they love the idea of detachment and being able to bring a disinterested mind to bear on the world. And there's something in that, you know, but also you miss a lot too. And what struck me when I went to the Y Carala Art Center up there and in the museum that they have there, they have a kinship tree to try and explain how, how the system works. Mm. And what strikes me is that really true, is true that we, we say quite commonly in a western society, you know, it does take a community to raise someone. And when you look at that kinship tree, it really is. That because it is not so much thing as a defined linear hierarchy, but it really is all about community. Oh yeah. And, and look, I'm like a toddler in that world. You know, I'm probably reasonably sophisticated in the main kind of, um, stream society that I'm in at the moment. But up there I'm a toddler and it is just so incredibly sophisticated. I mean. Who you are, how you're seen, how you relate the obligations. I mean, there are parts of Australia I think. Literally where without that sense of connection, you don't survive. You can't survive. And I think that that's probably affected the country as a whole. I think there is this general sense amongst every Australian, no matter how most recently arrived, you get the sense that this is a place that demands community. In order to flourish. It's not like other parts of the world where you can live as an isolated individual and and probably flourish because it's such an abundant source of resources here, there's something about the way it works that requires you to be part of something other and greater than just yourself and this kinship structure that you saw outlined on the walls up at your Carla, that would be capturing something in an image which is full of depth. That is. Almost incomprehensible unless you live within it. It is. And what struck me is that the way in which you would meet people on a road and you know the roads are very long in that area and the way in which they would introduce themselves is by relation to who was the elder that they were a niece of or, or what we would term what would be a niece. And it was just amazing. It was like. The way in which they talk about it is that connection through family and kinship. And, and it would be like someone you know down here in Victoria would be saying, oh, well I live in Frankston, or I live in Preston, or, and, and it was just such a different mindset. And what do you think we can learn from that? You've touched a little bit on it, but, well, I think there's so many things that we could learn. I think that notion of the holistic nature of the world, the sense of belonging with rather than dominating. Over. I think positioning ourselves in relationship to other people is a really interesting thing. So you don't define yourself by the suburb you live in or your job. I. But how you are in relationship to others, I think that's a powerful idea. And it's not unique to this country. I mean, lots of people will tell you about their, their family community, and my mother-in-law, she's from Tasmania, as all of that fa side of the family is, and she is from the northeast of Tasmania. And she has the same kind of genealogical brain, which you mention a person's name and she will tell you, and she's 92 at the moment, and sharp as attack, exactly how they're all connected, what the relationships are and things of that kind. So it's a really similar approach where the families there, at least as she was growing up and has continued to live, see all of these connections that exist and. I think it's just that on steroids, as they say, for at least the mob I know about. So I wouldn't be wanting to generalize for everybody, but that's how they go. And the other thing about it too is a very interesting structure in politics about who gets to speak with authority. So in that part of the world, and I think it is fairly commonly the case. The only people who can speak for country are those who've got that connection. And it's typically divided into two ways. There's a group whose country it is, and then there are, within that country, various sacred sites who are overlooked, supervised, cared for by another group. So there's this balancing that's always going on, but. There isn't any higher authority. It's not as if you go up in the local council or the state government or the territory government, or the federal government has authority. It's always intensely local because of these connections, and that's a way we, I. Don't typically think about. There is a parallel in Europe, so there's a principle called subsidiarity, which actually grew out of the social teachings of an earlier pope in the Catholic church and was taken up by the European Union. And basically the idea of that is you have authority at the lowest possible level and you only escalate things when that level cannot cope with the issues that are presenting. To them, and then it goes up a notch and then up a notch so that you force things down. So local community and that, that's really a much later innovation coming out of the Catholic church in Europe that had been in place for millennia, I mean, tens of thousands of years here in this continent. Wow, that's fascinating. And you mentioned that you've been invited to die. Mm-hmm. Back there on country. What does that look like and is that something that, that you have talked about with your family? Mm-hmm. Yep. So what we've worked out is if I don't happen to be there to die, then at least a fair chunk of my ashes or my remains in that sense, which is practically gonna have to be ashes are sent up there. And the ideal, of course, from their point of view is that I'd be there. And that's because there's a process which I'm not sure of, I, I don't think I can talk about it, which I know about of course, which is the app process of transformation that takes place to you, to you. And it's very specific and it's very much associated with places and journeys and transformation and. For whatever reason, and it's one of the great honors of my life, even when I was a kid, that group of older men saw something in me that they thought ought to be part of the continuing life of that world. Sort of hope. I haven't disappointed as to that, but I still go up and still get welcome. So I think it's okay, but it's a complete worldview that. He's very spiritual and very deep, and that's what I know I need to be part of when I die. And tell me, given that you know, the, that there's a way in which you've, you've been raised in this community, you were saying that you've only recently realized just how much that. That background has influenced your life now. What are some of the other things that you carry with you today that in the work that you do from them? From the mob? Yeah. Oh, I think, I think it's probably all summed up. I mean, I say recently, it's about a decade since I've tweaked it. This I was a bit slow, but I think it's probably all summed up in that, that sense of wholeness and pattern and relationship. I mean, I carry. I carry things that take place in my dream world, like I dream still being up there. And occasionally I have these really inexplicable moments when I've dreamt something and I'll phone someone there and they've had the same dream. That's amazing. Now tell me what it means, what was going on and what I was seeing. And that's someone from community that you bring in. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the last time it happened there were, I was found myself wandering along in a grassy country as part of a group, and there were the men with, they were claim carrying torches that were on fire, like a fire stick, and there was some water. Anyway, I phoned this fellow from the LAN and I said, I. Because whenever I have these sort of drill, I think I better, it's like a signal. Get in touch, something's happening. And so I've only said, oh, I, I had the same drill. I'll tell you who those men were. And he named them and he, wow. He was, he told me what it was all about. So I mean, that's, that's the kind of thing where your rational mind about, well, everything can be explained by breaking it down into its parts. It's defeated by that experience. It just makes you wonder more about the nature of reality and, and different dimensions of what you experienced in the course of a life, and of course, people who. I very religious, have probably had similar experiences, which they find hard to explain in rational terms. For me, it pops up in those ways and you know, I have to take, no matter how skeptical I am, I have to take the evidence before me of this happening and, and say, okay, well what do I make of that? Along with the other stories I hear about quite extraordinary things that are part of that world. There is, um, you know, we, we know that there's only a certain percentage of the brain in which we have been able to map and have been able to understand, and I've only recently had an interview with a neuroscientist about, you know, where do we actually define the area for where we, you know, become conscious and our consciousness and who we are as a person. And we know that, that people, you know, when they're nearing death have visions and experience those, those sorts of experiences. And then also we know that people have, when they've had a near-death experience and they've come back, there is very similar stories in which they say about being on a precipice and making a decision about whether they stay or go. So there is so much I think, that we don't know, but. With the work that you do now, has your strong sense, the sense of ethics and what's morally right? Do you think that that's been formed from that, that background and that that's not the dominant formation? I think that probably that curiosity about things really, and. And a sense of justice and why did things happen? That was probably already in me. And it may even be what it was that they spotted.'cause they've got x-ray vision. Yeah. They can sort of see inside you in a way that, um, it's quite, that you can't yourself, which is quite challenging sometimes. But, uh, again, I shouldn't generalize. But anyway, that's been my experience of some remarkable insights. But I don't think it's. That what I do is the sum total of that. I think it's an important part of an amalgam of different things which range from those experiences through to implications of what it means when as a child your mother dies when you're seven, and how that came about. And then philosophical training in places like Cambridge and then like lots of other stuff. I mean, I just think that. Whoever you are at any point in time is the sum total of all of those experiences. Some you might have preferred not to have had, but you can't sort of cherry pick from your life. You can't say, oh, I only want all the fun bits and none of the tough bits, because you wouldn't be you without that total amalgam bringing about the unique perspective that you hold at any point in time as a person. So. I think it's lots of things, but that's one of them. But you know, it was working with, you know, people in the mining sector and, and becoming a paramedic and having someone die under my own hands when I was still 17 because there wasn't a doctor and we couldn't save them. And putting somebody's body in a body bag and putting it over your shoulder and. Putting it in a cool room so that it can be, you know, there to be taken out on the air ambulance the next day. There's these things that happen becoming apparent. You know, it's a, so many things make me up now as to how I do my work and what influences it. And when it, when we talk about your work, there is a lot of ethics around death and choice, and let's have a little bit of a chat about that. So we hear a lot about the good death, you know, and, and what people see as a good death. But does a good death necessarily mean an ethical death? Well, the first thing is I think of a good death as being part of a good life. I don't think it's. A separate thing. I think the good life well lived leads to and includes a good death. And I think a good death would include being able to die without terrible regrets or guilt. So in that sense, if you can look back on your life presented to you in its entirety and die without regret or guilt. Then I think that is a better death, if you like, than the alternative, which is a person looking back and says, oh my God, how did I become the person who did that? And I'm not here talking about the kind of existential terror that might come from a person who believes that they're going to go to hell or go through a reincarnation process and come back as a tick or something like that. I mean, I'm thinking more about. The intrinsic nature of the life you've lived, which presents itself to you at a point in time where there is nothing you can do to make redress that you are, you are right at that point of ending. And so if I had a choice, which of course all of us do, I'd be trying to set up for a life where that passage through life to whatever comes, whether it's nothing or something at the end of that, didn't have. Accompanying it, the kind of or remorse that others might suffer. And do you think that we have a moral obligation to our loved ones to try and make that process as, as seamless or as streamlined as possible? Not at the expense of truth or not at its expense? Maybe I've refined that a bit to finding the right balance between truth and compassion. I mean, saying. Of a person ending their life. Well, we're gonna pretend your life was something other than it was just so you don't have the inconvenience of a troubled death. I can understand why a person you love, you might say, oh, I'll spare them what I can from that. But I also think if a good death is part of a good life, it needs to be informed by the life you've actually led. Not a mythic recreation of it. And so I'm not quite sure how you do this. I think it's a kind of a challenge for any of us if you're there by a person as they're dying, that they be accorded the dignity to recognize the life lived as it was, rather than a convenient recreation that spares some of that brittleness that might come at a moment when you stare back at your life and say, oh, that's what it really was. And I, I wonder perhaps even if you would love to be. Let off the hook that your life presents, whether or not you'd feel, in some sense diminished by a loved one who refuses to acknowledge you as you truly are. There's a question of dignity in that somewhere I think about if I am respected in terms of the intrinsic dignity I hold as a person. Does that not entail that when I am at the end, I'm not being lied to or manipulated or treated as someone who can be fooled? Even if it's well intentioned. In other words, is there a way to bring compassion to bear that even if the truth is a hard truth, it's not eliminated, but it's brought into the light in a way which is with love and compassion for the errors that have been made and for the things that might've been done less well than otherwise. And is that where the balance lies, that you live with the truth, but with the compassion for yourself, which others bring to you as you face the truth? Do you think that to achieve that, that we really should be having these conversations earlier on before we get to that point? Mm-hmm. Well, I think so, although it's, it's a bit harder because you mean if you, if you have it too early, you've got a runway of guilt, despair, because if people don't forgive you, you got a long time to think about the consequences. I, I think it's challenging thing, I mean, there. We probably all carry with US secrets, things that have happened to us or that we've done, which we don't necessarily wanna blurt out to the world. And you might choose to live your life where even at the end you carry with you your knowledge of self. I. Without presenting it to the world, which is different to when somebody else presents a lie to you about what your, you've been in the world that I, I think you can, you can carry a degree of confidential information secrets about your own life, which you might do for your own self-protection, but also it could be out of a regard for others that you don't wanna lay on them a burden which they then have to carry because you found it too inconvenient to reach the end carrying that burden for yourself. So yes, you could do a lot more. But I don't think I would want to advocate that a good life leading to a good death is based on radical transparency, where everything's blurted out without a proper regard for its implications for those whom you love. I think if you love someone, you should be able to curb what you need to do. Even sometimes if you think it would make you feel better just to get it all off your chest, if to do so, would be destructive for others. And again, that's where this balance between truth and compassion has to be taken into account. Yeah, that's lovely. And it is. It is compassion, isn't it? Well, if you love someone, or even if you don't know them well enough to love, but you respect their intrinsic dignity, whichever side of the equation you are on, you shouldn't be recklessly indifferent about how you. Engage with the world. Even when you've got a great good like truth at hand, it rarely stands in stark contrast to everything else as if nothing else matters. There are lots of ways by which the truth can be delivered, which are more compassionate than others, and it's about asking yourself in conditions where you love or respect people. Do I take the extra effort to do that in the most compassionate way, knowing that? The effect of this truth will be to change the world and for some people to make it harder. That's a really interesting way of looking at it and. Moving on to a, an issue that is quite challenging, and I think that with voluntary assisted dying, we have seen that legalized in, in most states of Australia with it coming into Canberra in November of this year. But still, Northern Territory is, is yet to actually go through that process. There's a lot of. You know, misconception, uh, myth. There's also been gag orders around what medical professionals can and can't say in relation to the issue. What do you see as the, the ethical complexities about, you know, voluntary assisted dying and the people that go through it, and also for those that are surrounding their loved one, that make that choice? Well, it's a, it, it is a genuinely complex matter and it touches very deeply to some people, and it's often plagued by confusion, some of which is deliberately so, so you'll hear. Some people, even occasionally, advocates for voluntary assisted dying, use that term interchangeably with euthanasia, although they're radically different things. I mean, euthanasia is about you choosing to end another person's life with a merciful intent to. Relieve something of their condition. Whereas voluntary assisted dying is completely different because it's the individual themselves choosing to end their life under conditions where they prevent or alleviate otherwise unachievable suffering. And the core ethical issue here is to do with the nature of suffering now. Now I have not yet come across any culture. Nor religion that celebrates suffering as something which is intrinsically good in itself. I just don't know of it. I do know of some religions in which unavoidable suffering may be a source for strength or personal growth or whatever, but the idea that suffering is a good, in and of itself is not something I know of. And if I think it did exist, it would be a kind of perverse view. Instead, I. There are people who might see that suffering becomes necessary in some circumstances because you have an unavoidable obligation or whatever, but not that it's good that it is by itself an evil which might be endured. And when you start on that basis and say, well, actually suffering is i'll, I'll use it in the philosophical rather than theological or in a physical sense of evil. So evil and good and bad, or evil as it used to be called. Like if a tree falls over in a storm and breaks your car or something, that would be considered an evil, not a that. You don't have to have demonic forces and things like that, but some people important to that idea. So in the old traditional idea, if suffering is something bad. Then it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say that it should be prevented or limited where possible, and it may not be the case that we can intervene in order to end the life of another person mercifully, to bring about their suffering. Although some people argue that there will be cases where that might be necessary, and I've had interesting conversations even with Catholic priests, where they've said, in that case, I would, I would stop the suffering and live with that. But this is the different case. This is, I am saying I have reached the end of what I am wanting to tolerate by way of suffering. If you like, all of the opportunity for growth or whatever people think might come from it as being exhausted. I'm just being completely shredded. My own sense of self is being destroyed by this, and there is nothing that can be done other than this. You know, there's, there's no palliative solution there, and this is where I've got to. Of course, I think, and I believe that's why voluntary assisted dying should be supported. Now, there are some risks, of course, that a person might be railroaded into a decision for reasons which are nothing to do with their wellbeing and the, you know, final end to their suffering. And it could be that they are not making a sound judgment. And so this is why there are so many hedges, if you like, around the whole process that as far as possible, this has gotta be a genuine act of informed consent, free prior informed consent, and anybody who is seeking to pressure a person to end their life. At an earlier point than when they're ready because they anticipate some benefit flowing from it. And the benefit may not be fine. Financial might just be, I don't wanna be the the carer any longer, or I don't want to have the emotional stress and strain. I've been on it myself and I know what it's like, this kind of rollercoaster when someone is at death store and then they come back and then you, if you said goodbye and then they recover and then you go through it all over again and you know. I know what that can be for people, but that's not a good reason for a person to end their life in order to save someone else from the discomfort of the rollercoaster ride that can happen when life is near the end. Instead, it's got to be a provision that society allows for free prior and informed consent for the alleviation of suffering that cannot be prevented by any other means. And I think at that point. So that your death is part of the good life that you've lived. Rather than this descent from good life into a nightmare, that's where we should be saying, yes, it should be allowed. And when we think of the rise in relation to green burials, natural burials, you know, alternatives to cremation and conventional burial or traditional burial, do we have an ethical responsibility to. Choose more environmentally conscious decisions or around this and reduce our impact socially when it comes to our end of life choices. Look, I think kind of the ethical obligations you have are arise out of a complex set of values and principles that you'll hold as an individual, and you've gotta be. True to yourself, not just following, I think a moral path where you might just do things as a matter of habit because you've been given a moral framework as a child, or pick one up along the way, but actually genuinely living the examined life that Socrates talks about. So you're really thinking through what it means to apply those values and principles in the context of your life. Now, for some people. Their religious views are such that there will be very strongly articulated rituals to do with how a body should be disposed of at the point of death, and often in expectation of something further that might happen. So for example, a lot of people, certainly within the Christian religion still believe in. Bodily resurrection at the end of days. And so they're, they're making preparation for that as much as they can, and so others, there'll be rituals of cleansing to make you fit for whatever comes beyond. And I wouldn't want to say that because that uses a bit more carbon or whatever or space that should be denied. What I would invite someone to do is to say, if you're choosing something which has a larger footprint upon the planet than alternatives, what can you do to be mindful of that and how might you seek to offset that effect? I. And then there are other people who say, actually, you know, I'm thinking of people who've got a very strong connection to country or whatever, where there were traditional practices, which were very low footprint, if you like, in terms of their impact on nature, but incredibly rich in spiritual significance culture, immersed in culture. Where all of that was sort of hard baked into what happened. And then there will be people who come from different perspectives, say, actually I want to have a green burial. And that's the thing I do because as part of the process by which I pass from the world into memory, I want some of the things which I. If you like, the echoes of my life that continue beyond my life to be authentic to who I was. And so if the environment is really important, then a green burial is one of those echoes. It's authentically an echo of that person. And so that's how I'd be thinking about it. I'd allow that flexibility, I think. But we have to be true to that kind of mixture of values and principles. Consciously reflecting on what they mean and where there is a cost. Seeking deliberately to offset that cost so that the thing we prefer isn't being a burden unreasonably born by others. I. And as we move into the world of more dominated by AI and very much when we, we dive, some of us leave quite the vast digital footprint. Hmm. And sometimes we have left these f. Prince unknowingly that perhaps somewhere in the future we may have the ability to, and sometimes we even do now with grief bots and recreate our voice, recreate our image as a means of comforting our loved ones after we've died. Where does the ethics sit in all of that, Simon? Well, we are, if not already there, incredibly close to be able to create a genuine digital twin. Of any of us. So I mean, with 30 seconds of voice, we can replicate my voice, your voice. We can produce stunningly realistic images that look like us, um, sound like us, where all the voice in all the words, and even ingest everything so that I've written so that the figure on the screen would speak as I would speak. And so that is not actually unlike what has been done throughout funeral practices, throughout history. Death masks in Roman houses of ancestors, statues, effigies on tombs, pictures of the dead photographs, sometimes portraits of other times that grace homes and mantle pieces. We've had a tendency to try and carry the memory. Of loved ones who've died with us in many cultures and in many places over many periods of history. And so this is, in a sense, a part of that. The difficulty is that it's animated and it behaves as if it is the person, and that's the thing, which I think is the risk. It's a little bit like actually cloning and the idea that you could take cells from a person and then implant them and produce a biological exact copy. Now that biological exact copy will be a physical replica of the person who died, and you can touch them and feel them and all the rest, but they are not that person and they never can be. For reasons which we touched on before and I was saying how we are the sum total of all of our experience that makes us uniquely who we are at any point in time. And equally, the digital twin is never me and never can be because it's frozen in time. I. It lacks and will lack all of the weird nuances that occur within the human mind, where completely unrelated things suddenly come together in an aha moment. And you change not because of any external imprint, but because of something that's taken place within you, within your consciousness. And again, the digital twin will not be doing that for you. Even if it does a fair simulation of it, it won't be you and it won't know one of the most important things that we all know. Which it is, what it means to be mortal. You see, when we have our conversations with each other lurking in the background, although we don't really reflect much on it consciously, is that we all know we're going to die. So the touch that we put on someone's shoulder when bad news comes, which is a consoling touch, is from one being knowing what it means to be mortal to another, and you share that even the most convincing replica cannot offer that because it does not know and cannot know what it means to be mortal in the way that we do. Because we grow out of this world. We're embodied, we're analog, and so I think. They may be a source of remembrance. They may offer some measure of consolation, but we always need to be guarded, whether it's a digital twin or a clone, but this is in fact not the person we knew, and they are no more real than the effigy that lies a top of tomb. And I suppose you could say the same about, you know, projects that involve cryo-preservation and future reanimation of the body. Well, that, that, that could be a bit different because if that is the analog version of the person in suspension and they come back and they are all their quirky self, fully intact, and I find this. Difficult to think will happen, but let's suppose that could happen for the sake of argument, then they may very well go on to evolve as a person in relationship, but. They're a little bit like the thine coming back to modern Tasmania. How will they fit within the world that is so radically different to that which they left behind the last time? They were consciously aware as a person, but I wouldn't rule out, I. That. Let's suppose everybody had a bit of a cryo journey where they'd waited for 200 years and they all wake up and they sort of pick up where they left off, then yeah, that's possible. That's different to the digital twin or the clone because that person has that embodied experience within them and maybe. An authentic self still living. And would that be the key, the authentic self and the ability to then draw on that experience, do you think? Well, if you are looking at it from the point of the view of the, the grieving relative, I suppose that this, this fanciful account that that is possible, then you would at least know that the individual you are encountering again. Isn't a simulation, it's actually the person in a new context. And if that's something which gives you immense comfort and the person was up for that particular journey, then that would be fine. But that would be very different to the illusion. That you might get while seeking comfort from a digital twin or a, a clone. No, that's, that's good to make that distinction. And I like the fact that you described then how in our every day and when we, we comfort and we act at the back of our mind, we always have our own mortality. Even though we don't talk about it, it is always there and it's something that keeps us quite distinctly different to other things at times. What is it that, why do we desire to live longer and why do we avoid talking about death? Do you think? I. Well, I don't think everybody aspires to live longer, and there are some people who reconcile themselves to the prospect of death very early in life, and they're kind of cool with it for a whole range of different reasons. But for most of us, I suspect we, I. We don't wanna miss out. That's part of it. On wonderful moments with family and friends, the kinds of things we've enjoyed up until now. We're probably curious about what the world has to offer into the future or we glimpse signs of it and think, wow, what would be a like to when there's a colony on Mars or when humans have moved through the the solar system or whatever else that's going to happen. And then I think there's also this fear that. The act of death itself will be painful, that there'll be a terrible struggle or you'll suffer terribly. So it's not, maybe for some people, it's not so much about being dead that they're worried about as dying a, a painful death. And then there is another group that is worried about. The prospect of non-existence or the prospect of a, a new existence in which there's some kind of terrible penalty to be paid. So people who believe in things like hell or whatever would not be particularly looking forward to death. If they haven't got a clean sheet. They, if they can get a clean sheet from a last moment expiration of sin or whatever, then maybe they'd be looking forward to a heavenly future. And so. Those people are probably pretty comfortable about what's to come, if not the transition process. But there are those people. I think that kind of dread, oh, well I'm gonna stop existing. I'll either dissolve into a universal sea of being where my own ego will no longer exist, so it won't be me. It'll be just part of something huge. Amorphous other, and there are others who think there's nothing. And of course it's a, it's a weird thing to be afraid of nothing because there won't be any, you there to be afraid of it just as there was no, you there to be afraid of all the nothing that came before you were born. So it's really hard to unpack it because I think the concerns about death, uh, probably all of those things and more things than I've named, and they don't just sit there. In isolated units, there's mixture of these things coursing through people from time to time, various misgivings concerns, fears that probably play together to create the overall level of angst that often exists when people start to talk about it. And what role does religion do you think play in providing a solution or an afterlife or a comfort, I suppose, to those people that believe that there is an afterlife in, in that? Well, I suppose, I mean, it does lots of things. Some of them not particularly helpful, but first of all, it promises you, there is something more than this life and so there's a continuation of your existence, your being in another form, in another dimension, and so that makes death something less terrifying because it's not the end, it's just a period of transition and, and nature is full of these things. You know, the grub that becomes a butterfly, that whole notion of chrysalis turning into something beautiful. And so if you are hanging on to existence. In and of itself of being as a good to which you wish to continue to participate, then an afterlife is a great idea. Then it comes the question, well, what do they do with that idea of an afterlife? And of course, some religions turn it into the most terrifying possibilities. They used to have a kind of lingering non-existence like limbo, which has now been dropped from the Catholic cannon. Then there are some that think there's this kind of waiting room called Purgary where you're neither quite in nor out, but you're waiting for the judgment to be made. Then there's hell and it's equivalents, and then you've got religions that have. A cycle of reincarnation until eventually you get off the wheel through enlightenment and some of those turns of the wheel can be pretty bad for you if you've been picking up your karmic debt on the next ground. And so they kind of give you the consolation of a future life and some of them. Taint it with some pretty serious reasons to not be looking forward to it unless you have played by their rule book. So if you can live a, an existence, a perfect existence, free from sin, or if you can find the grace of forgiveness at the end, then things will be fine. But that. Has also been understood as a way either of giving you your best chance at a great afterlife or also a measure for social control in order to enforce a particular code. And depending on your religious beliefs, it might be one or the other, or sometimes both. And moving completely away from religion and purely on an ethical question when it comes to suicide, a topic that's very taboo, we don't talk about it often enough. It is a a sad thing that happens within society. Where does the ethics stand on that? Well most suicide as opposed to voluntary assisted dying, which is a form of suicide, most suicide is not based on a kind of free prior informed consent. People are often suffering from clinical depression and a range of other factors. That they believe about their life to present an insurmountable set of challenges where death is their only outlet, even if it is as rational as that, and it, it often will not be. And so the ethical issues around suicide are not that it should be accepted as a right because. It's only a right in those circumstances where you're actually genuinely in control and making a fully rational choice in the way that you would in voluntary assisted dying. This instead is something that comes about because society has not adequately catered for the circumstances, including your mental health. That might lead you to this as a way to end it all. When there were so many other things that might have been done. And so the ethical question for society becomes, do we invest adequately in the various. Areas of research and intervention in medicine and other forms of support that mean that suicide isn't your only option. That there are forms of treatment and we're constantly looking as a society how to help. So there's now things like the use of psychedelic drugs to alleviate forms of depression that haven't been alleviated by using other forms of intervention. Ketamine's recently been looked at by the Black Dog Institute. Wonderful Research Institute develops all sorts of ways. So I think we should be setting ourselves up as a society to invest as best we can to ensure that no person takes their life in desperation in a state of mental anguish, such that they're not actually clear even that this is what they're doing. And I think that's a good point to make in relation to, we've talked about a good death really is a result of the life you live. It's a part of a good life. Yeah. It's part of it. And it's part of it. Yeah. And it's part of a good life. I, I really like that. The way in which you, you phrase that. And so what does that mean? What, what should we be doing in our everyday life? Well, if you were putting together a number of the elements we've talked about and, and you began about, you know, as a, a good death and ethical death, and I talked about how you. I would prefer to die without regret or guilt. I would be doing what the ancients have recommended, which is live every day as if it is your last. In a sense, think about how the life you are living in, which hopefully you are flourishing, is something that you carry through in that state of flourishing to the very last breath. And if you are able to live comfortably with yourself, if you're able to sit at the center of who you are to like yourself, if you like to love yourself a little bit. And not be remorseful for who you are, not to have that kind of moral injury that comes when you say to yourself, how did I become the person who just did that? Then I think if you're doing that every day, then that's good, and it doesn't require you to engage in the kind of heroic feats of someone like a Mandela or a Gandhi. I mean, this can be attained by just falling the right side of a question just a little bit. But every day, and you might just decide because you can afford to, to buy, I don't know, a free range egg rather than a caged bird egg. And. A little bit less suffering in the world is brought about by that. You might just say thank you to someone or smile at them. Even though they're just a passing stranger or a person in a shop. You might decide not to do something which would immediately serve your interests, but would be something that might be a bit tacky and you'd prefer not to have done. But all of those decisions have ultimately gotta be those that you make, knowing who you are and who you want to be with, given your own ethical foundations of core values and principles. And I think if you can do that every day, then you are doing about as much as anyone can do to ensure that the death, which is part of your life, is as good as the rest of your life. Simon, I think that is such a beautiful way to end our conversation today. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to chat with us. Thank you so much. It's been my pleasure. Thank you. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, brought to you by Critical Info. If you liked the episode, learn something new, or were touched by a story you heard, we'd love for you to let us know. Send us an email, even tell your friends, subscribe so you don't miss out on new episodes. If you can spare a few moments, please rate and review us as it helps other people to find the show. Are you dying to know more? Stay up to date with. Don't be caught dead by signing up to our newsletter and follow us on social media Head to Don't Be Caught dead.com for more information and loads of resources.