Holistic Funerals Choices BEYOND Traditional Funerals

In this heartfelt episode of "Don't Be Caught Dead," I chat with Charmaine Blanch, the founder of Tiare Funerals and Deathcare. Charmaine's mission is to empower families to reclaim their death rights and make decisions that truly reflect their values and culture. With a unique blend of creativity and deep empathy, she offers a holistic approach to funerals that goes beyond the traditional, sterile services many are accustomed to.

Charmaine shares her personal journey, which began with the loss of her grandparents at a young age. This experience ignited her passion for creating meaningful farewells that honour the individuality of each person. She discusses the importance of community, the healing power of grief circles, and how her Maori heritage has influenced her practices. From offering families the choice to wash their loved ones to incorporating sound healing and breathwork, Charmaine is redefining what it means to say goodbye.

Join us as we explore the profound connection between death and life, and how embracing these conversations can lead to empowerment and healing. Whether you're planning a funeral or simply seeking to understand the process better, this episode is packed with insights and options that can help you navigate the complexities of grief and loss.

Key points from our discussion:

• Charmaine's personal story and how it shaped her approach to deathcare.
• The significance of community and cultural practices in the grieving process.
• How Tiare Funerals offers families the choice to be involved in the care of their loved ones.
• The role of grief circles and holistic practices in supporting those who are grieving.
• The importance of self-care for those working in the deathcare industry.

More about Charmaine:

https://www.tiarefunerals.com.au/

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,

Catherine

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Contact Catherine

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Podcast Editor: https://www.livvimusic.com/

Music composer: Ania Reynolds - https://www.aniareynolds.com/

Transcript

0:02

I was young and I had a funeral director try to get me to buy a $6,000 coffin. It was for my grandfather. And she would use language like, wouldn't you want him to be proud? And I'm like, oh, he is proud. Like he doesn't need a blingy coffin to feel that way. And my pot was really humble. He just wanted something simple. And I came out of that and I thought one day I'm gonna work in that industry when I'm a bit older and find the right people to work for, and I'm never gonna take advantage of people in their most vulnerable moment. Welcome to, Don't Be Caught Dead. A podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared. Don't be caught dead. Acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations and recognizes their connection to land, sea, and community. We pay our respects to their elders past, present, and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. Today I'm speaking with Charmaine Blanch. She is the founder of Tiare Funerals and Death Care. Charmaine's purpose is to empower families to reclaim death rights, and make decisions that are truly reflective of their values, culture, and connections. With a background in event management, catering, art therapy, and fashion, Charmaine brings a unique blend of creativity, organization, and deep empathy to her work. Her goal is to offer not just a service, but a heartfelt experience that reflects the uniqueness of each individual and their loved ones. Guided by ancestral knowledge and inspired by a desire to reignite old customs with fresh, progressive ideas. Charmaine is building a legacy, one that can be passed down through generations, helping others find meaning, beauty, and the empowerment in saying goodbye. Thank you so much for being with us today, Charmaine. Oh, thanks for having me, Katherine. I've been quietly excited about it and um, yeah, I can't wait to dive into all things deaf and dying and how we can make it better for families out there. That's great. I love when people are enthusiastic about talking to me. That's fantastic. Um, so tell me, how did you get started in this space? I guess when I was 17 I lost my grandparents who were pretty much my mother and father figures, and that experience was, it was really hard at that age, and I. Remember feeling very vulnerable. I was young and I think the one thing that stuck out for me was I had a funeral director try to get me to buy a $6,000 coffin, and it was for my grandfather, and she would use language like, wouldn't you want him to be proud? And I'm like, oh, he is proud. Like he doesn't need a blingy coffin to feel that way. And my pot was really humble. He just wanted something simple. And I came out of that and I thought one day I'm gonna work in that industry when I'm a bit older and find the right people to work for. And I'm never gonna take advantage of people in their most vulnerable moments. And I, I really wanted, I. I guess in starting ti, I wanted to empower families and make them feel like they were in the driver's seat and just sort of be in the background to help guide them. But it would all be their ideas and how they envisage saying goodbye to their loved ones. And was that how you felt in that moment when you were there at a young age, sort of having those conversations with the funeral director about your grandfather? Is that how you felt was vulnerable and, and taken advantage of? Was it? Yeah, I did. I felt like I was being talked down to, and I felt like it was all what they felt was best for him, not what. Truly reflected him. Like my grandfather was a very charitable man and I know that he wouldn't have cared what type of coffin it was. As long as you know, it was probably comfy and that's about it. So I just felt that one day I'll have my chance to be there for families. And I think too, like working in the deaf industry. A lot of people have lost people in their lives already or at a young age, and it just brings this profound empathy and you just get it when someone says, oh, my auntie's passed, or you just connect with them on another level and you can take yourself into that zone and really feel what they're going through and. Have a profound understanding. And so you refer to the fact that at one point in time when you, you get older, that's what you wanted to do. So what was the catalyst, what was the point in time that you thought, okay, now's the time to do it. I'm old enough. I've reached that point. What? What happened? Okay, so, um, when I was about 36, I finally met my father for the first time. My mom, you know, she was cheeky back 42 years ago, had a one night thing as many of us do, and I was the product of that. I did my DNA test on ancestry, and I found out my father lived three streets away from me in Redford. No way. Yeah, it was pretty. Mind blowing. And my auntie had done her tests and I, I just wanted to do it to find out my nationality, but I didn't realize you got DNA matches. And there was a person highlighted in red and it said, this is your half sibling or your auntie. And I clicked on her phone. I was like, oh. It looks like me. Oh my goodness. And yeah, got in contact with her. I knew it was my auntie, and she said, I have seven brothers and sisters. And she said, tell me a bit about your mom. And she said, oh, I think it might be my brother Stewart. And I said, where does Stewart live? And she said, oh, Elizabeth Street, Redfern. I said, I live on Marriott Street, Redfern, which is three streets away, met up with Fme New, straight away. Yep. Definitely my father did a direct DNA test just to make sure, and it surely enough it was. And yeah, I started to learn about my culture and I just, I'd found this connection to myself now. It was like a big missing piece of the puzzle that just helped me to understand a lot of who I am. And I guess like the Polynesians, they love to sail, they love fishing. I'll take you back to a funny little story. I was up in the witch Sundays maybe. Three years prior to that, and I love fishing for big mackerel and this one day there was no disrespect, but sometimes I sing to the fish when they're not biting and I started singing the haka, didn't know the proper words, but all the lines just went. They went off and we caught about six macro all in one go, and we couldn't like get them on board fast enough. They were all flipping around and. Took them back to the island and um, gave them out to other people and ate some else else. And then when I found out. Who dad was, my partner at the time said, do you remember when you did the hucker? And the fish went crazy and came on board. And I was like, and my uncle was there and he was like, oh my goodness, I need to take you to the water and teach us about our married gods. And I was like, just, just helped. And then Wow. Yeah, I just, so what culture were you raised in and and what were you led to believe about your heritage when you were growing up? Yeah, I was, uh, raised in quite an orthodox Catholic culture. Went to church every week, even reconciliation. And look, I still hold some of those values, but I would say I'm a non-practicing Christian. I'm quite spiritual now, but I also believe that. All the religions and all the spiritual aspects all have a role to play. And to me, I believe that anything's possible, and maybe all of it is true, but I also believe religion has been put in place to help with fear of where we go next. And I think none of us know where we go next. It's, it's the mystery of what happens. But I'd like to believe that we get to see our loved ones again. And that's kind of what I believe. And so you were, you were brought up in a quite an Anglo kind of background, was it? And then with a Christian or Catholic faith, and then you found out through the DNA testing that you had Maori heritage? Yeah, I went on a big journey learning about all my aunts and uncles. I went over to New Zealand, I visited our land and our Europa. Which, uh, graveyards where a lot of chiefs had been buried, and just really got a sense for what it would've been like for them back then. And I just instantly felt a connection to our land and culture. And I've been partaking in IES ever since. And I did my own father's tongue with the help of a. Another funeral director, they helped organize the body pickup and the cremation, and we had our father at the hall and we washed him and had him there on a cold plate for three days. And dad's funeral was just so, so family centered and just so beautifully done. And so. Really represented him authentically and I thought I have to somehow turn this into. A way of giving back, but also a way of an income for me and show families how they can reclaim their power and have their person in their home legally and do almost everything themselves. And you know, there are some families out there that wanna do absolutely everything themselves. Sometimes our brains are quite foggy, and we do need the help of either a funeral director or a funeral guide, and that's kind of where we step in. We can do as little or as much as you need, so. And the the tangi, that's the Maori reference to the funeral or the wake, is it? That's correct, yes. So it usually goes for about three days. Then the night before ceremony, which is burial day, we have a thing called, which is a circle that could go for three hours, maybe 10 hours, and you have some mattresses. In the middle for the kids and everyone goes around the circle and says a story about their loved one, good, bad, happy, or sad. And it means that we get to all partake in the funeral and have our last words with that person. And the person is lied out either on a cold plate or embalmed in a coffin, and then we sing a song in between every story and we dance it out. And you do. You leave the night, you're tired, but you just feel like this. Sense of something has come off your shoulders and you feel like you're ready to say goodbye to them tomorrow. And um, yeah, it's just a really beautiful way of families coming together. And prior to your father's death, what was your experience with death prior to that? I would say sterile. It's the coffin turns up at the church or the chapel. It's usually indoors. You don't get to see the body out and you don't speak about it too much. And you just have about an hour ceremony, maybe an hour awake, and then you go home. And that's meant to be your grieving time. And to me that's just, it's not enough. And I guess too, my business. What it's about, it's about not being restricted to a 45 minute ceremony. It's about trying to do it over a good three days if you can, and slow it right down. And that's, I think, especially in sudden death. It's a really good idea to have the cold plate at home so you can have some quality time with them. And even sleep. I know it sounds a little bit morbid to some people, but sleep either side of them have some mattresses in the lounge room. And honestly, it will be one of the best sleeps you ever have. And you really get to say what you need to say to them in your own time, in your own personal space. And I feel it sets people up for a better journey with grief down the track. And tell me, was that the first time you had experienced a, a tangi was when you actually were involved in, in organizing your father's? Yeah. It's, oh wait, no, we had one other before that. My uncle Tommy, sorry. And that's where I started. My eyes really started to open and I was like, these guys, they just know how to do death. Like they get it. Same with the Irish. Like they have their person at home for three or four days and they don't even need to use cold plates'cause it's so cold in Ireland. They just have 'em on the kitchen bench and they drink whiskey or Guinness around them cups of tea. And you know, we need to have our people in our homes because. That's where they've either lived or they've created a home within us. And I think, I guess it's funny too, I also ask people if they wanna come and wash their loved one with me, and some people are too, like, oh no I don't. But some are like, I didn't even think of that. So the way I present it is think about if you've had a baby or you know someone that's had a baby and you wash that baby for the very first time. That little Bubba is so delicate. You're so gentle. You make sure the water's not too hot and you're very careful, and then you wrap them up in a towel and dry them and carefully dress them. Well, washing your loved one that has passed is exactly the same. They're just a little bit colder, and you are just so gentle with them, and it's the last time and the last intimate thing you'll do with that person, and it's really special and usually it's in silence. To me, it's the big be all and end all. And the last time you'll get to touch them in a private, like private setting where it's just you and your family and it's, it's really special and it's something you'll never forget. And I think everyone should have the right to be offered that. With their loved one, whether it's at the funeral home, or you can do it in their home as well. And tell me, obviously you're, you're talking about a very holistic and, and personalized approach that you have adopted with Inari now. Can you talk me through how that is unique and how you work through with a client when they come to you? So people who are perhaps unfamiliar with what is unique about you and how you, you have your approach. To me, a holistic funeral service is embodying the whole process of the funeral. So that means whether you have a loved one with a diagnosis, and we come in beforehand and talk to you about your wishes and what you would like or if it's when you call us. We come to you, but we let you, we give you the choice to do absolutely everything with us. If you wanna come to the mall to pick up your person, you can. If you wanna bathe your person, address them. If you want to do all the artwork for their memento cards order of service, you can, or we can, you can do bits and pieces and we can help. So to me it's about really being in the driver's seat and you are calling the shots, not us, and also looking at. Not everyone can afford an expensive funeral. It doesn't need to be that way. But rather than you guys coming to our price, we try to see where you are at and come down to your price. And you know, we make things work, like things like a flower spray. It's usually around six, $700. It doesn't need to be that much. I'll bring you a flower foam brick that you soak and there's. Usually lots of greenery in your yard. People have flowers all over the street. Like if you start to forage and really look, you can make the most amazing flower spray out of things that have been forage from nature, and it's all for free. So there's little things like that where you can cut costs and it doesn't need to be this. Huge expense. And you mentioned the cooling plate, so some people may be unfamiliar with what that is and how that allows people to extend their time with their loved one within the home. Could you perhaps talk through that for me as well? Yeah, sure. So a cooling plate takes away the need to embalm a person. Embalming these days can cost anywhere between six 50 to about $3,000. Yes, it's probably needed in repatriation because we don't know how long that person's gonna be in the air for. But a cool plate costs about $150 to hire, and it's eco-friendly, as in we're not putting from high into the person and we're not taking any blood out of them. That's what happens in embalming. So if you decide to have a natural burial, you would use a cold plate. It's doesn't make a noise, it just sits in the coffin, but keeps that body nice and cool so that you can have them in the home and. Sometimes if it's a really hot summer, you'd put a bit of techno ice on them, which are just sheets of ice that we put in your freezer that you keep changing every 24 hours. But yeah, it just takes away the need for embalming and to me, like it's really eco-friendly and it's efficient and I feel like to me it's the way forward. They sell these plates in Holland, so they do a lot of funerals. No one at the moment is selling them in Australia. That makes them here. So there's anyone out there that's, there's, there's a business for someone isn't have, but um. Yeah, it's, it's a great idea to use or you can just use normal households. Like if you really wanna have your person at home and do it all yourself, you can freeze bottles of ice and use that for up to five days. You can get an extension for 10 days from New South Wales or Queensland Health, whoever you're going through. Yeah, you just gotta keep that body nice and cold, that's all. It's pretty easy. And what sort of, um, now you've established and found your cultural heritage. What sort of things have you then embedded into your practices within your business and, and what you offer that are sort of based in those Maori traditions? Yeah, I'd say we do offer, we don't call it, but we do offer a night before the ceremony to do a sharing circle. And we have my uncle, he plays ukulele and guitar and he's really good at just, you know, you tell him a song and he can strum along to it and everyone sings. So we can incorporate that. We incorporate obviously having your loved one at home. We can incorporate flower weaving and flower lays. A lot of women like to get flower crowns made for their final journey and you can have them around you. We also incorporate having grief circles, and I feel like in Polynesian culture. You do, you get together in circles to grieve together and talk. And so I guess the whole business is kind of based loosely on that, but in more modern ways and yeah. And tell me how have you found people responding when you, you've provided these offerings? You mentioned that the business has been running for just over 12 months now. And, and how have you found people within the community coming to you, what have they found that's has drawn them to you as opposed to other service providers in the area? I think how I get a lot of my customers is they're looking for something more natural and I guess eco-friendly and I guess slowed down as well. A lot of people haven't really considered that they could wash their loved one with me or at their home, and sometimes at first they can be. A bit like, oh, I don't know if I wanna do that, but I can guarantee you every family that has done that has come out and said, I just feel so put back together. And I just feel like I've had a bit of closure. And for me personally, they say it's quite healing. So I feel like only positive things come out of that. And, and like I said before, whether it's a baby or your past loved one, it's. One of the most special and sacred moments you can have with that person. It's one of those classic things of you don't know what you don't know. So if you've first time to, to be involved in something like this, it's great that they actually have, you know, options. And like, I think you've used the word quite often is, is choices. You've given them choices about whether they would like to do that or not. Which is, is something that's quite interesting. Can you tell me a little bit more about the sitting with grief circles and what that involves? Yeah, sure. Um, so when we have a funeral, we're there for our people 24 7, but then. When their funeral's over, we obviously are moving on to other ones and we can still answer the phone to them or call them back. But I find the grief circles a really nice way to still stay connected with those families. And what happens in death is in that two weeks leading up to the funeral or the few days, people are kind of around for two weeks after, but then you know they have to go back to their jobs and their life. Whether it be with kids or looking after elderly people, and it's not that they forget what just happened to you. They're just not on the same plane as you are, and that is that really deep, heavy grief. And I find that if people can find other people on the same trajectory as them. Then it's easier to connect on a human level, and that's sort of what happens at the grief circles and they form friendships from that. But it's also a nice way to come in. Sometimes we have like sound healings or dance movement, or it might be like a homopathic workshop or a flower weaving type thing, and that helps to reset the nervous system. Feel calm, then we can talk about what's going on. And you know, there's no advice given in these circles. It's just a platform to talk openly, feel listened to, and walk away from it and just feel like you've gotten some things off your chest. And then we share a meal afterwards and. All our facilitators that come in, we do pay them, but we offer the circles for free to everyone, which I think is a really important thing to do because it's all about community at the end of the day. And I would say I. Polynesian people, that's what they love. They love to support their community, and that's a way we give back to our community and, and I do feel that it really helps with the long grief process because once you're on that grief train, you are unfortunately not hopping off. But the train ride does get a little bit easier down the track. It's so, um, interesting. It seems that you've certainly embedded that, that peer support and that community sense within the offerings that you provide within your service, and you also trained as a death doller, didn't you? Before you became a, a funeral director? No, I didn't train as a. Deaf doula. Um, oh, okay. But I do believe we do have a couple of deaf doulas that work for us, and, but I do, I believe we're all doulas in some sense, like, especially women, like we're just born with caring natures. A lot of us do do caring type roles. And yeah, I think the purpose of a def doer to me is to come in and help with all those. Things on the peripheral, like legal paperwork. It might be cleaning up, it might just be a listening ear or a helping hand, but they're sort of people that can kind of see from the outside in what needs to be done and what can be helped with. And a lot of it is intuition based, so I don't believe we also need to do courses. To be a deaf doer. But I do think when it comes to legal paperwork, it's really great idea to do executive courses out there, to understand how big the process is for people. Because navigating that field, it's a minefield. And, um, if you can, as a deaf doer, make that job for them just a little bit easier, then I think that's a really positive thing. So tell me, how do you think that your event management skills have played such a role in, in what you are doing now? I just feel like, you know, as you would know, organizing events, like you've gotta be quick on your feet, you've gotta be. Have a sharp mind and you know, be able to see what's gonna happen before it happens. So it doesn't, whether that's a good or bad thing and just, you gotta be really organized and you know, you are also managing people a little bit and you are managing sometimes big emotions. So trying to help that process just be a little bit easier on them and you know, or something blows up, you wanna. Be ready to just make sure, I guess, that you're organized and that you have things in place to help in those situations. But yeah, it's definitely fast paced, but I think bring it all together and then leaving. I. Afterwards and just feeling like, oh, I feel like we did a really good job, is, um, really rewarding in itself because, you know, it, the fact is, as you mentioned, you're not offering a 45 minute service. You're offering something that can extend for days. So what do you do to make sure that you take care of yourself during this? What's your self-care practices? Going to bed early. No drinking through the week. I try to get up and go see the sunrise as many mornings as I can, and not while I've got ceremonies or funerals pending, but. Once I have a small break, I always go for a massage. That's my big thing. And yet you do, you have to really fill up your cup because if you don't do enough self-care, you can't give to others. And I think that's really important. And you know, you've gotta. Prep your meals, because if you are eating crap on the road while you're going from family to family, you are not looking after yourself inside. So I always make sure I've got, I'm taking food to wherever I'm going, and I'm prepared in that way. So. It cuts out the need for snacking and things like that. That's so interesting you say that because yeah, that's the one thing that I think people is the first thing to go is, is what you're putting. The food that you're putting in, the nourishment that you're putting into your body is that you just keep going and going and you forget to fuel yourself. So that is very, very good at advice. And moving on to the, the, you mentioned about the sound healing that you have, you also. Talk about breath work meditation. What role do you think that that has in allowing people to grieve and feel supported during these challenging times? I think sound healing, breath work, and meditation, all these things help to reset and calm our nervous systems. It's not gonna remove grief, but if we can take moments out to do these little things in our day, it just helps to not make that really heavy grief. Feel so big and it gives us moments away from grief.'cause I, I'd say like when you're in that really hard part of grief, the only thing really that helps is when you go to sleep because you switch off. You don't have to think about it. But sometimes people can't sleep through these moments. But if you can incorporate either sound, healing, breath work, or a bit of meditation, it's gonna help calm your mind when. It's running wild and um, I think it's just they're great things to incorporate it into your everyday life if you can. And obviously we do them as at grief circles and we can teach people how to do themselves in their own home so that they can, you know, when they're feeling quite anxious, they can go, okay, let's put on that video where it guides me through the breath work or. The meditation and it just makes a better relationship again with your grief journey. It seems to be this level of self-empowerment and also choice that seemed to be at the center of the work that you do. When I hear you talk, you're mentioning how you see how people can have the skills to create their own flower arrangements through foraging. You're looking at how they can incorporate breath work into their everyday practices. It is really. Providing a service that is so much more than just a funeral. Where do you think this comes from? Has it come from your new found heritage or do you think it was qualities that you had? When you refer to your grandparents and you, how fondly you talk about them, is that something that they instilled in you or, yeah, definitely. My grandparents, they were superhuman. I feel, I'm, I'm even getting a little bit teary talking. They were both such shining lights in my life, and what I loved most about them was they were the most selfless people I'd ever met, and they just did everything for everyone. My grandma worked for St. Vincent DePaul. My pop at the time was a retired policeman, and I remember going on little car trips around to people's houses and my nan, she would have a quota of how much she could give each family that was struggling, but she would come out to my grandfather and be like, they need more money for this, and he would open up his wallet and give her a hundred dollars note to take in. To them to give them for food or electricity or whatever they needed. And they never fought twice about it. They just did it. And even when I was, um, wrapping up their affairs, like all the mail, it was charity after charity after charity, Mr. Blanch, it's that time of year again. Do you think you could donate to our charity? And I was like, who were you not donating to? They would've been billionaires, I reckon. But what it taught me was, you know, there's always someone that's far worse off than yourself. And when you can put that into perspective. It helps you to have empathy for others, and I feel like what they instilled in me really helps me in my work today, and I know they'd be super proud of what I'm doing. And yeah, we're not all about making profit. We're about making really heartfelt experiences for people that they will remember and they will be able to go home and hopefully. Have a better journey afterwards, and it seems to be that community that you're trying to create as well. So there's a support network afterwards that seems to be key in what you offer as well. Definitely I, I don't think I would've ever gotten away from community 'cause it was instilled from my grandparents, but then my aunties and uncles on my dad's side, they're so community people. So I, I feel by nature and by nurture, I am just a community driven person and I just love to be able to set up things. Show people how they can make things better within their own community rather than, I would never wanna work on a big state level. I'd only wanna work within my own community.'cause I feel like with grassroots approach, that's where small things can become bigger and it can spread, but it can also teach people how to do it in their community and so on and so on. And what do you see as the, the future for Tiare Funerals? Oh gosh, that's a tough one. Um, I never wanna get too big for my boots, but I would like to rather than make it into a massive. Nationwide company. I'd like to teach people how they can either do their own funerals or how they can set up their own business to help others in the same way and give back. And I mean, there's other funeral places out there. I don't know if you've heard of Tender Funerals, but they're very community driven and they've got lots of volunteers and. I'd love to do something like that. I think. I think it's a great way to give back to the community and you know, people are still employed by it, but we are not charging people ridiculous amounts for funerals. Well, that looks like an, an amazing vision for the future. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with us today, Charmaine? Um, gosh, what else? I can't think of anything at the moment. But, um, yeah, I just feel very honored to be here talking to you today. And yeah, I, I love all our clients that come in and out of our door and if anyone ever needs to call us,'cause they wanna be able to know how to do their own funeral, please do. And we'll give you half an hour of our time for free. And, uh. Hopefully I see more of you at our grief circle. Our grief circle's also open to people that have not done a funeral with us. We, we invite everyone from the community, so yeah, come along and share your story. And what areas do you cover for those who are listening? Uh, we cover Sunshine Coast down to Ballina and we will do the odd funeral in Sydney. Yeah, so that's. And we go inland about three hours. So, um, if we need to, that's, that's still a really large geographic area. It's, but you know, we're able to do that at the moment until we get, I mean, but you know, the more busier we get, the more people we can put on and have servicing those sections that if we have to do two at once. So yeah. We have an office, it's in Mogul up near Brisbane too. So we're in Chira in New South Wales border and then up in Mogul near Brisbane. So. Well, it sounds like that you are certainly making community in those areas and creating a, a support network that's well and truly needed. So thank you so much for sharing, you know, some insight to the amazing work that you are doing. Oh, thank you Catherine, and thank you for your time. Thank you so much, Charmaine. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, brought to you by Critical Info. If you liked the episode, learn something new, or were touched by a story you heard, we'd love for you to let us know. Send us an email, even tell your friends, subscribe so you don't miss out on new episodes. If you can spare a few moments. Please rate and review us as it helps other people to find the show. Are you dying to know more? Stay up to date with. Don't be caught dead by signing up to our newsletter and follow us on social media Head to Don't Be Caught dead.com for more information and loads of resources.