Who’s Really at Risk? Understanding Elder Abuse

Have you ever thought about who might be the biggest threat to the elderly in our lives? It’s not just the faceless strangers in nursing homes; it’s often their own family members. 

In this eye-opening episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I chat with William J. Betts, a legal expert in family violence and elder rights at Peninsula Community Legal Centre. Will sheds light on the often-overlooked issue of elder abuse. We dive deep into the complexities of estate planning, the importance of having a Will, and how to protect our loved ones from potential harm.

Will shares his wealth of knowledge on the legal landscape surrounding elder abuse, revealing that adult children are frequently the perpetrators. We discuss the critical role of community engagement in preventing abuse and the importance of open conversations about death and dying. With practical advice on estate planning, including the significance of having a Power of Attorney and an Advance Care Directive, this episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to safeguard their loved ones and ensure their wishes are respected.

Join us as we explore the nuances of elder rights, the legal protections available, and how to navigate the often murky waters of family dynamics when it comes to estate planning. This conversation is not just about legalities; it’s about compassion, understanding, and the importance of community in protecting our elders.

Key points from our discussion:

• Elder abuse is often perpetrated by family members, particularly adult children.
• Engaging with the community can help identify and prevent elder abuse.
• The importance of having a will and understanding the probate process.
• The role of power of attorney and advanced care directives in ensuring wishes are respected.
• Strategies for mitigating family conflict through clear communication and planning.

If you enjoyed this episode, please let us know! Share your thoughts, subscribe, and help us spread the word about the importance of discussing death openly.

Resources Mentioned:

• Advance Care Planning Australia
• Critical Info Support Section

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,

Catherine

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Transcript

0:01

It used to be that when you'd mentioned elder abuse, people would think mainly around nursing homes, aged care hospitals, you know, the kind of nurse ratchet style of abuse. But the reality is it's actually family members, generally, adult children of older people who are the biggest risk to. Being perpetrators of abuse against their parent or an older person. Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Catherine Ashton. Founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared. Don't be caught dead. Acknowledges the lands of the Kulin nations and recognizes their connection to land, sea, and community. We pay our respects to their elders past, present, and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. This morning we, as speaking with William J. Betts, he serves as the deputy Director and practice manager for civil and crime at the Peninsula Community Legal Center in Melbourne, Victoria. In this capacity, he oversees. Delivery of civil and criminal legal services, ensuring that clients receive comprehensive and effective legal assistance. With a robust background in family violence law, will has previously held this position of senior lawyer family violence at PCLC. His expertise in this area has been instrumental in advocating for and protecting the rights of vulnerable individuals affected by family violence. But beyond his managerial and legal roles, will is actively engaged in community education initiatives. He has participated in discussions highlighting the importance of wills and the role of community legal centers in assisting individuals with estate planning. His contributions aim to raise awareness about legal rights and empower community members through accessible legal education. Will's dedication to social justice and his comprehensive experience in civil, criminal, and family violence law underscores his commitment to serving the community and advocating for equitable legal outcomes. Wow. That is amazing. Not everyone. That's quite the introduction. Yeah, that was, thank you so much for being this. Will I appreciate. No, I absolutely. I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me. It sounds like you have quite the social conscience when it's come to your career. Well, sometimes we just fall into these things, but I like to think that I, part of my motivation is to contribute to my community through my legal practice. So it's very rewarding. It's very rewarding to do this work. And tell me, how did you end up in this field? Well, I first started as a criminal lawyer, seems like a lifetime ago, basically, because it was the only job that I could get at the time. This was shortly after 2008, so after the kind of financial crisis and jobs were pretty hard to come by. I actually studied, when I did my study, I did intellectual property, background in the arts, arts prior to that. And so I just kind of, it was the first job that I could get and I kind of fell in love with it. And mainly the advocacy. So the court work and progress from that position through a number of different private legal practices, and then eventually came to PCLC through that as kind of a. One of their duty lawyers at the Frankston Magistrates Court in the family violence list. So it was at the beginning of the specialist Family violence court. And so since then I've been working at PCLC and kind worked my way up. I've originally only just finished my eighth year, coming my eighth year at PCLC. So it's been quite the journey. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't start with the notion that I would go into a community legal practice, but it's the most rewarding place I've ever worked in my, my legal career. And tell me, you, you mentioned just previously about the, the changes when there was an introduction with the family violence court. Is that, what was that? Can you explain that? Okay. So some time ago the Victorian government, I think it was then the Brax government introduced the specialist family violence court. So prior to that time, I. The family violence matters, that's intervention orders in relation to family violence and dealing specifically with family violence. Didn't have a specialized jurisdiction. It was just run of through the rest of the usual lists and dealt with in amongst all the other matters being criminal or civil matters. Yeah. Right. Now you can probably imagine that obviously that led to a lot of difficulty and even a certain amount of risk based by, especially survivors of family violence, having to attend court and often sit opposite and next to the, the people that are alleged to being exposing 'em to that family loss and those behaviors. So obviously after a significant period of community engagement from led by survivors, the government took up those, uh. Legislative changes, it's the Family Violence Protection Act. And along with it, a number of changes in relation to how the court function. And part of that was the creation of specialist family violence courts that first started as specialized lists and duty lawyers, specially trained duty lawyers to assist both respondents and so people, perpetrators and survivors would have their lawyers to assist them. And there'd be specialized programs set up to assist people engaging in that process. And also along with that training for magistrates. And now we are in a situation where there are a number of specialized courts that have been designed as in architecturally designed to. Create a more safe environment and low risk environment in relation to dealing with these matters, because obviously court and was seen as a focus of risk for people. And so part of the jurisdiction is about minimizing risk to the community facing family violence. So we didn't want the court to contribute to that risk. So I was kind of came on board. My timeline might be a little bit off, but a few years after those changes were kind of implemented and prior to the current system that we have. So I've kind of saw the development of the specialist family violence court and it and the jurisdiction. It's relatively infancy and seen how it's kind of evolved. Over that time, it's amazing to think that we've come from, in that period of time, I'll say short period of time will, oh, relatively, yeah. No, yeah. War moves really slowly. So this has all happened relatively quickly. Yeah, yeah. So it's in recent memory, if you're thinking, you know, Steve b Brax and his term as premier of Victoria, so I still wasn't at school that stage, unwell and truly left by that stage. So it's within, I'm gonna say recent memory. And so it's interesting that we've seen, you know, that progression in the law, recognizing the vulnerability to the point that it's even actually designed buildings, which I think is just so necessary and, and an amazing, you know, leap forward in, you know, as you said, an industry that. Generally is slow to move. Mm-hmm. Um, and the reason why I'd, I'd really wanted to have a chat with you today is that you work a lot in the space of estate planning and also around that whole elder rights, elder protection, elder abuse element that you can see. Can you sort of set the scene for us about what you've seen in your career about how that is? That is because for me personally, it may be just because I've just started working in this space, but I do feel like that there's more conversations now in the last three sort of, well, certainly since I think the Royal Commission into Aged Care has been released, that there is a more community awareness around elder abuse. Would I be fair to say that? Well, I think it ebbs and flows. Yeah. Okay. Uh, I, when I first started, there were a lot of misconceptions about elder abuse that were out in the community that I think have receded quite a bit. It used to be that when you mentioned elder abuse, people would think mainly around nursing homes, aged care hospitals, you know, the kind of, this might be shown my age, but the kind of nurse ratchet style of abuse occurring in the care of someone by a, a nurse or aged care professional. But the reality in terms of the figures and what we saw and what the kind of statistics bear out is, it's actually family members and generally adult children of older people who are the biggest risk to being perpetrators of abuse against their parent or an older person. And so essentially what. Has happened over a period of my work has been a recognition that it does fall within what the courts and the law defines as family violence, that being a trusted family member, engaging in abuse of conduct or coercive control in relation to a relative. So there was a long kind of push to make to kind of recognize that as a form of family violence and therefore being appropriate to be dealt with within the family violence jurisdiction. And that's where I first became involved in elder abuse as an issue. As part of that process, we set up a, what originally was supposed to be just an elder abuse clinic down in our SBU office to kind of provide that specialized advice and begin engaging with older people. Now, this might be pulling back the curtains a little bit, but one of the reasons why I became engaged in this, the area of estate planning, was beginning with it as a bit of a Trojan horse in order to discuss with older people the issues of elder abuse and to raise the awareness about concerns about those issues using estate planning as a lens in which to kind of bring people in to start discussing those issues. Because we found that if we set up a education session about elder abuse or coercive control or something like that, or family violence, many people would not wanna engage directly with that. Those programs and so we kind of set them up as wills and estates and kind of estate planning and we discuss the kind of estate planning but bring in those elements of, but whilst you're doing your estate planning, it is really important to think about risk and managing your family and being aware of people trying to pressure you or control you into making certain decisions in relation to your estate and the different kind of warning signs that might arise in relation to keeping an eye to that. And so essentially that's kind of what brought me into this, this space as I came into the space of assisting older people with their estates. And that's why very much my perspective is very different from a lot of my colleagues in that I come at the question of estate planning from a risk mitigation and almost a family violence. A rubric then rather than purely just the kind of often commercial and angle that a lot of other solicitors may, may come at it from. I'd like to think that it's becoming more common for solicitors to turn their mind to those questions when engaging with people in relation to estate planning and will drafting, but as I said, will move slowly and that's a slow process. But as I said, so that's the kind of background of how I kind of came into this Yeah. This space and why my perspective is a little different than some of my colleagues. Well, I, I love your perspective, will, and I have so many questions about this now. Sure. So tell me, you, you talk about risk mitigation, so what sort of things do people need to be aware of? What should they be? The alarm bells? So I'd say there's two categories in relation to this question, and this often comes up when assisting and doing presentations. I often say to people when they attend my presentations that it's actually the people who are engaged with their community, who are willing to come out and are coming out to a function or engage with a community group who have invited me to attend, to speak to them. They're actually at a lower risk in a lot of circumstances.'cause one of the ways to really prevent risk is to be engaged with the community and be engaged with other people. Be talking to them about what's going on. Be talking to them about your plans. The more people that know what you want to happen in relation to your estate, means that there's more people to kind of recognize if something's going wrong or if there's been a sudden change.'cause that's one of the big kind of warning signs. The classic is if multiple wills are being made within very short periods of time. Yeah, then that's a big red flag. If it seems like every 12 months or even shorter, a new will's being drafted. That often means that there are multiple parties pressuring someone to change their will, and so it's just a game of who trying to get in to get that last will done. Yeah. Right. But people who are not isolated, who are in community are in a much better place to be able to say, I'm experiencing this pressure and have support come around to try and protect them from that. What often happens when I do these kind of presentations and talk to the community is that it will be the people that attend those kind of engaged in community may have someone who is more isolated, a neighbor, a friend, someone else who's in their retirement village, who perhaps isn't as engaged, who then they can recognize the signs, and often it is. Part of the first thing to notice is if they are very isolated, it's not always the case. Some people just like they're quiet and like be, not to kind of be as social, but often it is a sign of someone who is essentially being isolated rather than doing it upon their own volition. Yeah. Secondly is if someone is seemingly isolated, but there is one person that is constantly there or is attending and there's the kind of, there's issue of obviously yelling, bruises. There's all those kind of classic things that people should take note of, especially when it comes to neighbors or people they're in community with. Yeah. Some of those things are, are kind of general family violence, things that should be of concern. As I said, isolation, canceling of events. You know, if I have a, someone who I live with in a retirement village and we catch up. I like to reach out to people. I, you know, I invite 'em for coffee every week just to kind of touch base, which is something I would encourage people to do if they're concerned about, someone needs to kind of go, let's go out, let's go get a cup of tea, bring them out of their home, or even a visit their home. And that's always a good one as well, is if you're able to visit the home, have a look around if you're seeing, you know, damaged property and things like that, that might be a sign that something is happening. And this goes for a whole, whole range of issues. I mean, it's not just in terms of family violence, in terms of health, mental health in general. So this is, yeah, what things do just broadly, and we know now from statistics that loneliness is, is a absolutely significant contributor to both mental health and also physical health. Uh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. And this is why, you know, again, going on a bit of a tangent, why I kind of, in terms of the Aged Care Village system, it has its issues. I deal with it quite a bit, but that, as I said, the kind of that village model. Is I think quite a good one because it kind of creates that community. And I've found that the community that can be created around a village is one of its major benefits. But as I said, so those kind of things of if you engage with someone and let's say they start canceling or they, you attended their address and you see that they're, they're not doing great. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that there's elder abuse going on, but obviously those overcome things. The idea being that hopefully if you engage with someone, they will open up and tell you what's been going on. And so one of the things that I think is unfortunate is that prior to, I've seen this kind of evolution, as I said about in this engagement, it was originally thought that the kind of concern in relation to elders was often financial. And there are often financial elements, and that's where the kind of will and estate planning comes into it. But in a lot of sense, the, the most commonly and the kind of base level of which often the other parts are built upon in relation to elder abuse is psychological and emotional. Yeah. That's kind of the cornerstone upon which all these other things develop. So you can often tell when someone is talking about their relationship with their children, with other relatives, they'll often say things like, oh, they, they yell at me when I mention X, Y, and Z. Or you know, they tell me that things like, oh, well, you know, if I'm not gonna do X, Y, and Z, then they're not gonna bring their grandkids over to visit. Now that's not of the same level of someone saying, I'm gonna hurt you if you don't write my, give me the house and the will, but. It's still upon that spectrum of behaviors, which the courts consider to be elder abuse in a form of family violence. I just, even me, I personally, when you, when you said, you know, I'll threaten to, to not bring the grandkids, I'm like, wow, that's, that's, that's a terrible thing to say. It's a very, it's a very, that's a, that's a quite a, a common, common thing. Now, it often won't be as explicit as that. That's the thing. It won't be as explicit that people's, especially with relationships with their parents, these are very, not to sound like the doctor from Vienna, but these are very complex and intricate relationships with a lot of psychological ballot baggage and that comes along with them. But as I said, it often we'll be as explicit of that, but often it won't be as explicit as that It will be. Well, if, you know, I'm, I'm too busy to, to, if you won't help me with X, Y, and Z, then. Well, listen, it's gonna be too difficult for me to come and visit for Easter or to set up Christmas or something like that. So, as I said, the kind of pulling away access to the kind of community and family that it's the kind of core of their communities, those kind of family connections. And so, as I said, that's on a spectrum of behaviors, right? You know, often that very kind of, that psychological and emotional abusive behavior and controlling behavior is on a spectrum that at the very end you have the kind of extreme forms of violence and threats. And often there's, as I said, it's not explicit, it's implied in relation to, well, if you want me to be engaged in your life, then you are gonna have to support me. And that kind of saying that my engagement with you has a cost, a monetary cost is often what we see, you know? If you really cared about me and your grandkids, you would give us the money. Yeah. Right. That kind of thing is, is often what happens or you would give us extra in the the will. So as I said, this is what we see. That's the thing to, that I, I'd ask people to be most kind of clued into in relation to the risks, is it's often those things that form the foundation that will then be used or lead to the more significant financial issues and financial abuse that can have the long lasting impact on the quality of life of this, beyond just the, the kind of impact of. Living in a circumstance where you have those kind of relationships with your cousin family, especially with someone who's older and may not have the capacity to kind of mend those relationships. So I often tell people, if someone is telling you about their relationship with their children and they're saying things that sound like they're being coerced or there's controlling behaviors or blackmailing or emotional blackmail, things like that, those are the things that I would say, well, you know, it's worth exploring those more. Some people exaggerate, some people, you know, we kind of maybe talk a bit more dramatically about sometimes about our relationships, but often that hides a, the truth of the matter. You know, the, the classic, well, my son never calls that kind of thing. You know, see movies, it's a bit of a punchline, but sometimes that can hide a real, a coercive relationship. Affection is provided on the basis of receiving, um, certain things in return. And just on that point, will, um, so you mentioned previously that you yourself actually take people out for a coffee and have a chat catch up and see where they're at. So if someone is in a community, and it doesn't matter whether it be a village such as a retirement village, but let's, let's talk more broadly in relation to community.'cause we know that statistically there's only, you know, a very small number of people who actually have created their wills and given consideration to estate planning. So this is, uh, something that can certainly be discussed on a much broader scale because they're not all going through the will process. So if we do notice these behaviors, what is the sort of things that you sort of talk about? What sort of conversation starters do you suggest to people? Well, as I said, asking those questions about their family, when did you last hear from X, Y, and z? And if someone that you don't know very well ask them about their family, what is their relationship like with their kids? It becomes almost, quite obvious. Often, you know, when you sit down with someone and you start asking those questions, you know, there's always, if their eyes light up, when they start talking about their kids and their grandkids and they want to tell you about what they're doing and how proud they're and happy they're about them, generally that's a pretty good sign that, listen, there's not much going on here except perhaps this person's just a bit lonely. Or they might be just going through a tough time, but if it upsets them to talk about their family and their closest relatives causes them distress. Or they're automatically just start trying to change the subject, that's a sign that there might be something worth probing more. Now, I'm in a, a different position, so often when I talk to people that it's in the context of a, I mean, within my own community. I'm not in community with that many older people, but in terms of, you know, family, friends, and the like. But in terms of my professional work, in terms of the people that I engage with professionally, people kind of expect for me to probe and expect me to ask difficult questions because I need that information if I'm gonna advise them accurately and to give them the best advice. So it's quite different if you are a friend. You often don't want to push too hard 'cause they'll often cause people to kind of withdraw and sometimes it takes time and building a relationship for people to open up. But as I said, it's a bit more of an art than a science. It really is. There's kind of body language cues. There's, um, the way people to describe their relationships or lack of relationship or refusal to broach certain topics Yeah. That people should keep an eye out for. And you might be like, well, you know, it might be a process where you, you kind of, your neighbor in the village doesn't seem to come to any of the kind of events or, you know, you barely even see them come out and, you know, you wave at them and they kind of begrudgingly kind of wave back but don't really engage. You know, you think, well it might be worth just knocking on the door and seeing if they want to have a coffee. Or when you see them next, you kind of say hello and go over and have a chat. Invite them for a coffee. And then, as I said, as you kind of engage with them, you may start seeing more of those signs. Mm. But sometimes it's worth just continuing on that process and gradually building the relationship over time so that they feel comfortable coming to you and having that space over for someone to be able to come to you by building that relationship, bringing them into community. They feel like they're not so isolated and you know, not everybody's built for that kind of work. But as I said, for those that are, those are the things I would encourage them to do. Everybody's different in terms of what kind of conversations and how it's best to engage with them, what kind of community they're gonna be drawn to. You know, certain people might want to, you know, be drawn to the, the local bowls club or playing golf or whatever it might be. Whilst others, it might be, you know, just a cup of tea or a cup of coffee or whatever it might be. As I said, the, the hobbies and engaging people in those kind of things is a good way to kind of break down those barriers where a whole myriad of issues can be facilitated. And elder abuse is just one of those, like you mentioned, in relation to loneliness, mental health and physical health and all those kind of things. Those things all are kind of. Venn diagram and the, yeah, the kind of connection between a lot of these things is, as I said, the first line of defense against a lot of these issues is community and being engaged with your community. And so having those connections beyond just your family can often be a resource for people when engaging with their family. I love just the simplicity of what you said earlier in relation to the response, like you asking a question and then just waiting to see what their response is. And you can clearly see like when people do light up and they do get excited talking about their family and their grandchildren and, and things like that. So I think that, like you said, that there's so many cues. So, and you know, the thing is that it can be a process, but the beautiful thing is that it's a win-win, you know, because you're actually getting to know someone within your community and, and that's, you know, that's always a beautiful thing to actually get to know a neighbor, you know? And listen, it's a two-way street. You never know what's gonna happen in relation to yourself, where you may need to rely on that person. Yeah. Um, but I mean, as I said, we often, in terms of the law, I should mention and in relation to the legal solutions are very different. But they are often, I would say at the end or something that would be considered, you know, once you've kind of engaged in these processes or if it's clear that there's an emergency and an immediate risk. So obviously contacting the police if there's an immediate threat or risk of harm, so violence, other things, or engaging with a service such as ours to assist in relation to approaching the court for legal protection. But in terms of the stage where you're not sure you're worried about someone. Rather than you know that something is happening and you, there needs to be a direct intervention at that time, is to engage with the person and bring them into community. That's what I advise. It's funny 'cause that's exactly my, what was gonna be my next question will was like, if you feel like that there is an immediate threat or you feel like that you have got concerns, that there is something going on, what was the next step? So thanks for answering that one. You've jumped ahead, you'll do me out of a job. Um, and there's also organizations such as Seniors Rights Victoria here in Victoria isn't there, that you can also refer people to, to get to know what their rights are and get advice. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Our seniors rights, they're there to talk to people and advise them and to know our services similar to seniors rights and that, we'll, we'll talk you through if you're concerned or if you think you are concerned about yourself or, so, as I said, the one thing I would say in relation to engaging with a solicitor is that. For instance, for ourselves, we can't give third party advice. So if you are concerned about a third party, then the best thing I would say is to encourage them to speak to someone and get that legal advice. And just on that, will, I've done talks at daycare centers and things like that to, to older groups. Something that I've found that there's been some hesitation with is, is that people aren't confident to know what the law is. Uh, and I've suggested to them that that's nothing to worry about because there's people like you will, that they go to and you know the law apparently. So, um, uh, yes, I would say that knowledge is powerful for people. So, you know, it's worth people taking the time to try and understand these things, but. Especially in this space, it is kind of common sense in a lot of senses. The kind of, the bit of the smell test, the pub test, and what the lawyers say is the man off the bus. And that's why I say I, I often find that most people have a pretty good nose for this kind of thing. And that's what I found from my engagement with older people is that they'll often approach me and say, I've got these concerns about my friend, and they're spot on in terms of their suspicions that this is not right and this is potentially illegal behavior. So most people's instincts in relation to this area in particular in relation to elder abuse and concerns about someone's estate, that things going awry there is pretty spot on in terms of the kind of legislation, the Family Violence Protection Act is actually relatively straightforward in its drafting 'cause it's a relatively modern legislation. We're not talking about things that go back. Certain parts of the law that go back to 300 years that are much more archaic and complicated. It's in its execution and its subject matter that it is complicated. The messiness of real life that often interferes with what lawyers would like. To be able to deal within legislation and the lack of that history. You know, family violence wasn't necessarily considered a crime until relatively recently, and so you have this situation where the kind of history is short and so often we're kind of developing it now, developing what's called the jurisprudence in relation to these matters are relevant compared to other areas of law. It's quite young, so as I said, I often defer to people's instincts in relation to these things. If you think your friend is at risk or is being controlled or used by one of their relatives, I'll not second guess you by bringing up a certain case and say, well, this is, this says that. That's probably not accurate. That's not what the law says. I'll often defer to people in the community who have a very good sense about these things. And then it can be tested against the kind of, the, the current legislation rather than working the other way around, I guess. So let's have a think about, or probably move more really focusing on the law aspect and the estate. Mm-hmm. Planning aspect of things. So how can seniors, you know, ensure that their wishes and what they want to happen and their values, uh, actually legally binding? What do they have to do? Is it through a will or? Absolutely. So if you don't have a will that lays out clear language, how you wish your estate and everything you own to be distributed upon your passing, then you'll pass what's called intestate. Now, intestate is pretty hard and fast. It's just what the court determines. And it's basically the spouse being the first in line, children being the second. I think it's parents after that, and then it kind of goes down a hierarchy with siblings, cousins, that kind of thing. So it really takes the control out of your hands in terms of who gets what and when. So will can be as simple or as complicated as you'd like it to be. Really, there's a lot of powerful things you can do with a will, especially if you have a larger estate that you wish to protect through what's called testamentary trust. But then we're getting very much into the weeds simulation, to the actual drafting. But if you have, I always say to people, the will is gonna be as complex as both your estate. So what you own, what you own is complicated. Some people have quite sophisticated financial arrangements and property arrangements. Then your will is gonna reflect that, or should reflect that and or if your family is complicated. So let's say you have step siblings, stepchildren, your children have stepchildren or more things like that. People's families are very complicated and can be very complicated, where it's not just, I distribute this to my child or my partner, the will's gonna have to reflect that. So the way to ensure that it does reflect what you wish to happen, especially if it's complicated, is to engage a solicitor to draft your will. Wills compared to a lot of other legal work are relatively inexpensive and currently the process in relation to the creation of a will is simpler than it's ever been. And the reason for that is through technology, essentially. The main thing is that what actually sparked this big kind of change in shift was the COVID pandemic. Social distancing obviously still needed to be kept being made over that period. And so that caused a lot of solicitors to innovate in relation to how they went about crafting wills. And it's become a much easier and more efficient process where essentially it can all be done remotely, including the signing and the witnessing can all be done electronically these days. So especially for people with limited mobility and limited access to transportation, that's a big boom. That's great. And so essentially, if you are looking for. A solicitor, a good place to go is the Law Institute of Victoria. Or if you are concerned about whether you need a will or whether you need to update your will, if you've got a will, but you did it 30 odd years ago and you're not sure whether it's fit for purpose, again, a organization like the CLC or Community Legal Center or senior's rights to just ask them and then they may be able to assist you for a referral for someone who will draft that will for you. So as you said, the reason why getting a lawyer to draft your will is not just that they do that work, they draft it and they take all the details and they do all that work for you, and they'll talk you through how to effectuate what you want to happen. Through the drafting of the will, they also take on the responsibility of making sure that it's accurate and it works. So you can essentially write to rely upon the expertise of the solicitor, the drafts that will for you. Whereas if you do a do it yourself will. Often it's a really simple, straightforward will, they can work. But if you get something wrong in the instructions and it's not signed or witnessed correctly or how it's worded is not clear, you may end up in a situation where the court rejects that will and you end up in a test date state. So as I said, that's the best way to make sure your wishes are executed correctly, is by engaging the solicitor to draft it for you. And we have links to all of the law institutes in every state of Australia on the critical info support section of the website because Fantastic. As we're aware, will, the laws are different in every state of Australia, aren't they? That's correct. That's correct. Um, so there is some uniformity in relation to wills and estates, but there is obviously big differences, especially in relation to the probate process. So this is why I wouldn't want to give any kind of very specific advice in relation to particular processes. Victoria, recognizing that if someone's listening to this in Queensland, I may go through a very D or a particular places like Northern Territory or a CT. That may be a very different process. And can you just explain to people what the word probate means? Oh, okay. That's a good one. That's come up. So probate is the process by which a will is determined to be valid. Empowers the executor, which is the person that is appointed by the person that's drafted the will to execute what is in the will. So it can essentially do what the will says. So to distribute the estate and plan the funeral and those kind of things. So essentially what's required in relation to that, and as I said, I'll go very broadly because there are some differences in nuances, depending on what state you're in, is the documentation is filed with the court saying that this is the final will that they drafted, it's properly executed and the person's passed away and I'm the executor. And you file it. And that's looked at by the probate office of any particular jurisdiction and they will then it's advertised, uh, that the person has passed and probate is being sought. And that's essentially when someone else can potentially put their hand up and say, wait a second, I should be included on that. Will or I wanna challenge, I've actually got a later in time will. So the most recent in time Will is the one that that runs, which is why I was saying before about, you know, this constant churning of wills is often a sign of something wrong happening. But as I said, so probate is the process by which the court determines that this is the valid will, and then essentially gives the person a document that the executor is able to go to real estate agents, banks, any other institution, and say, I act on behalf of the estate and therefore can deal with the property owned by that person. It's most important in particular in relation to what lawyers call real property, but that's kind of property, homes, land, that kind of thing. In order to transfer land of a deceased person, you need to have something from the court saying that I have the right to do that. And that's a really good example you make because to transfer land, the probate is required. Mm-hmm. And I, I wanna ask you in a minute about executors and, and the role of executors, but Sure. We'll, we'll hold that for a moment. The scenario when our friend died was he had a will and his two adult children were traveling from interstate, so, oh, sorry. Overseas I should say. And I rang the probate office to ascertain whether we needed to go through the probate office or not. And this was in Victoria, and, and they said that it depends on whether the organizations that we were dealing with required. Letter of probate. I'm like, okay. So then I had to actually ring or collectively when the family arrived, we had to ring all of the different organizations and all the accounts we needed to close to work out whether they needed the probate to, whether we needed to go through the process. That was very confusing. Just, just on a personal note, that one, yes, it can be. Yeah. Um, so the one that I personally found when we went through that process was the bank was the one that was really the deciding factor. He didn't have any property owned to him in Australia at, at, well, we didn't have any property owned to him at that time. So it meant that the bank was the one that was the deciding factor about whether we needed to get probate or not. And we didn't have to at that particular point in time. But is that a common scenario that what I went through will Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. Great. Um, and the part of the difficulty is that it's not standardized. So each institution bank in particular has different standards and monetary amounts, the required in each bank account in order to need a letter of administration or not. I've actually been thinking that I think that banks should follow the path of superannuation funds in relation to the distribution of funds that are held in accounts rather than the kind of process that's currently in place, at least to allow them to go up to a higher threshold. Uh, currently with superannuation funds, you don't need a letter of administration or a probate to in order to access super. The person just nominates someone when they set up their superannuation account that they will get what's contained within it. And I think it would be pretty straightforward for banks to have a similar situation where someone nominates the person and then all that's required is the death of certificate and evidence of the person whom they're requiring. Now obviously that would change for certain amounts over a certain threshold. I would've thought that anything close to or plus 70 to a hundred thousand dollars of value would be something that would require a letter of administration.'cause it really is about the value of what's contained within it is how the court kind of looks at it. So as I said, it is very complicated. Shares as well is another one that's an absolute nightmare in terms of distributing or getting shares through the As SX or elsewhere in order to dispose of the shares and distribute the shares because they're financial, because of the, the nature of them as being a kind of own. Property, but different from personal property and different from real property. It's private property, classical sense of the term, and that you're owning a chunk of a company. They're very difficult to deal with as well. You know, in order, I think in order to dispose of one share, you require letters of administrations in some circumstances. So it is, shares are another one that's really, really difficult to deal with and to determine what should happen with in relation to the estate planning. So those things, what we've talked about goes back to what we're talking about in terms of what people should think about when they're doing their will, is how are my things owned and what institutions are they held by? And do my executor and or beneficiaries know about these things? A lot of ways do they even know that they're actually nominated a beneficiary as beneficiary executive or executor and what that role entails. Yeah. You know, and I think, I think that'd be really a great for you to, because I know perhaps people may be unfamiliar with, with just what the requirements are in relation to your death. We've talked about wills and the, and we, it'd be great if you can go through the role of executor, but also what if we are hospitalized or what if we're overseas. I know that as a family we have power as of attorney. And then we also, I've just gone through the process with my mum of making sure that she had an updated advanced care plan. So these are all from my understanding documents that we can actually use to ensure our wishes are followed. Can you perhaps talk through, and I don't know my mind in which audio start will, but if you can talk through perhaps the. Those three documents and the elements and the parties associated with them. Just so everyone is clear who is the decision maker and why they're in place. Mm-hmm. Sometimes that's really good to understand. Sure. They kind of, the, the trinity of estate planning and I, they're the things that people should consider when the kind of legal things that they should consider. There are some periphery things, but I don't think we need to talk about those. Mainly those relate to tax and how you can kind of, they're more questions for accountants, but in terms of the three, I'll probably start with the executive, 'cause we've just been talking about wills. Like I said, you can appoint, an executor should be someone that you trust. You should have spoken to'em about being an executor. You should get them to understand what is contained within your estate. They should have a copy of your will that appoints them as executor and you can appoint multiple people to fill that role. But just be mindful. That you don't want a situation where you're appointing two people and they never agree on anything. If you are appointing your two children and you know that they disagree about everything and like to argue about everything, do not appoint them as co-executors because you're just setting yourself up for disaster in relation to them just arguing and potentially litigating in relation to your will. So just be mindful when appointing multiple solicitors, I mean executors, sorry, because there needs to be agreeance between them for anything to happen in relation to the distribution of the property under the will. So if you are gonna appoint multiple executives, I generally say it's best to have at least odd numbers so that there's like a, they can kind of vote. But as I said, the generally one and on alternative is the best way to go about it. So for the executive themselves, they don't have to agree to be the executive. They can refuse to take up the position'cause it does involve quite a lot of work, which is why it's important to talk to the person who you are thinking of appointing and checking that they're willing to do it. It's also worth appointing someone who, you know, this comes up quite a bit, where someone will appoint their brother who's two years younger than them and they'll do it in their, maybe in their mid sixties and the person passes in their eighties and they've appointed a 78-year-old or even older to be their executor or the executor's past for, so it, it's often worth thinking about, well, is this person going to be fit and able to be the executor when I've passed? Okay. Not now. If that makes sense, you know, often. Yeah, and I'd I'd even say that, you know, it's not something that, you know, I, I know that we actually review our, our legal documents every year at the tax time. So we are making sure that it's actually reflecting our current views and our current situation. You know, you very thorough, you know, not like I know, I know. Because yeah, there is, I'm sure you've seen many of those scenarios where it's something they wrote this will 30 years ago and it's never been looked at since, and then everyone listed is probably dead, you know? Yeah. And, and when, when I give these speeches and talks, I often say, I don't say to people every year, even though that would be the best you, you gotta start somewhere, but I'm aiming high will. Yeah. You're aiming very high. I say at least every 10 years, a decade is a good kind of measure of kind of the changes in our lives and our opinions and the like, but. I would say that the older one gets the, generally I would kind of drop that to five years and then potentially if you're getting much older every year, because things can change pretty dramatically over a short period of time. But also just being aware if there is a big change, both financially or family wise, someone passes pulling out the, your legal documents and having a look and you know, checking that they're not the executor and things like that. So, as I said, executor, the main thing of the takeaway with that is an appointing executor. It should be someone that you trust and someone that you've communicated with about your wishes and about your estate. Okay. So then onto powers of attorney. Powers of attorney is a very big subject all on, on its own, but at its core, the enduring power of attorney, which is the most common one that people deal with because as I said, powers of attorney are quite complex and there's a myriad of types is the, if I lose capacity. The person that I've appointed as the power of attorney can start making certain decisions as detailed in that power of attorney in relation to me. Now, that could be lifestyle decisions, it could be legal decisions, it could be financial decisions, or it could be all three. And essentially it empowers the person to one, engage act as our agent in relation to entering into legal contracts, things like that, or making decisions about our lifestyle, where we live, or those kind of things. So as people probably guess, it's a very powerful document. It empowers someone to really make big decisions and potentially make very life-changing decisions on our behalf. So perhaps out of all of the, the documents we're gonna talk about except for advanced care directive, but that's slightly different, is one of the most powerful ones. Should be done with the most care in terms of who we appoint as our power of attorney because the issue with the power of attorney is that it comes, an enduring power of attorney comes into force when we lose the capacity to make decisions. That's why the trust has to be there because I am no longer going to be in a position to question directly the decisions you are making in terms of in accord, no longer gonna be able to enter into contracts 'cause I no longer have the capacity to. Okay. So it really is a very powerful thing and should be done, not entered into lightly. And you should really take the time to discuss with the power of attorney about what your wishes are. As I said, power of attorney is different from advanced care directive and when I get to the advanced care directive, you might see it might show some of the, the issues with the current power of attorney system. It's kinda a lack of guardrails. It's a very archaic system. This is one of those ones that goes back hundreds of years and a lot of the kind of concepts and things don't really marry up with the current financial, practical, and medical understandings of things like capacity. The amount of work that's involved in having a power of attorney. I think it's an area that we'll probably likely to see some reform in the not too distant future. But as I said, so power of attorney, really powerful document. Take your time. They're a simple document to draft. You can get a solicitor, draft them for you. They are simple document to draft, but they're very powerful documents, so they should be dealt with care. And if you are acting as a power of attorney, there's a lot of duties and responsibilities that fall upon you that also should be taken very seriously because breaches of those duties currently can come with terms of imprisonment. If there's fraudulent behavior going on. So, as I said, powers of attorney, very powerful, very important document should be taken incredibly seriously. And as I said, people should take the time to discuss it, be careful, as I said, engage and make an informed decision in relation to a power of attorney. So that's, any questions about that? Well, just, just on that, will, I know that because powers of attorney really come in to effect when it can be really, really stressful. Exactly.'cause it's generally associated with a critical incident or an illness or an accident, something along that line. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So what we did, when my mom updated her power of attorney, we went and visited the old school in, in regional Gippsland, but we went and visited the bank manager at the bank and we actually registered the power of attorney with the bank because that takes. Let me tell your people weeks Yeah. To get approved. Yep. And actually go through all the checkpoints to make sure that they're comfortable with making sure that should anything happen, well something will happen. We're all gonna die. Let's not kid ourselves. But should that Power Attorney need to take effect that, you know, it's, it's already there and I can walk in and it's gonna be a lot less delay than what there would be. Absolutely. That's really good advice. I mean, it's something that I advise people all the time. The first thing you should do after drafting the power of attorney is distribute it to all the institutions in which you gauge with regularly, so that you're not in a position where the person's kind of walking the bank in order to get a withdrawal of much needed funds. Thinking that all I need is the paperwork and the bank saying, well, no, we need to process this. This takes a certain amount of time, but obviously that it takes a lot of time because mm-hmm the bank doesn't want to distribute funds to someone ordering to be a power of attorney who is not. And so, as I said, that's very good advice. But as I said, power of attorney, I suspect we're going to, that's my prediction. I've been wrong about these things before, but my prediction is that we'll see, I think as a, the advanced care directive being a model that we might see changes in relation to our powers of attorney function, particularly in Victoria, if the government's in a reforming mood in this area. But with potential public support and community engagement in the issue, I think we might see some changes in relation to power as of attorney and how they work, which leads nicely to advanced care directives. So Advanced care directives used to be. Called medical powers of attorney, which is why there's a, a correlation between them. But a lot of the issues we see with powers of attorneys were even exacerbated in relation to medical powers of attorney.'cause previously a medical power of attorney allowed the person to make medical decisions in relation to someone who had lost capacity. Now back in this was spearheaded by a member of Victorian Parliament who went through a very difficult experience in relation to, I'm not the member's name, but she went through a very difficult experience with her own parent in relation to dealing with medical powers of attorney and the conflict and confusion that it would cause in relation to managing their parents' health. And so kind of led this, the effort to reform in this space in Victoria. Now this is Victoria specific, I think I haven't checked recently, but I think there's a lot of changes that are mimicking much of I. The success we've had in Victoria, but Victoria was kind of a leader in this space, and as I said, so the advanced care directive is different from a medical power of attorney, as we've had a lot more safeguards and a lot more, in some ways is a lot more intricate and more fit for purpose in relation to the current way that both medicine is practiced and array, these kind of decisions should be made. The key elements of an advanced care directive is one, it does remove a lot of the lawyers being involved, to be honest. Most hospitals, doctors, age care facilities there will facilitate and assist you with drafting an advanced care directive. And one of the reasons for that is the advanced care directive allows you, as the name suggests, to direct what kind of treatment you want and what kind of treatment you don't want. Both in the form of direct directives in relation to X type of treatment, but also in the provision of a value statement that allows you to, if you've got religious, philosophical, or other kind of values that you wish to be expressed in relation to your treatment. And in some ways this connects with the assisted dying legislation as well, which I won't go into. That's very, again, another broad topic, but as I said, there is some connection there, allows you to dictate in almost all circumstances what kind of treatment you are gonna have. Now that's different from the previous medical powers of attorney, whereas purely within the discretion of your power of attorney, medical power of attorney, about what kind of treatment. So it didn't matter if another family member said they were clear that they never wanted X, Y, and z. Of treatment, but the medical power of attorney says no. That's what I believe is in the best interest. And so currently now the advanced care directive allows you to direct what the medical treatment decision maker is going to do, and they're bound by those directions in almost all circumstances. That's why you need the advice of a medical practitioner often to make those directives because a lawyer doesn't know, lawyers like to think they know everything about everything, but we very rarely step into the realm of medicine. And so we're not in a position to advise you about what treatment is appropriate and what treatments you can expect or could expect to have performed in if you have a certain condition. So as I said that, that's the kind of difference. It also has a lot more safeguards attached. And Will, can I ask if you, if someone has a medical power of attorney and an advanced care directive, what happens then? So, medical power of attorneys are still. Valid. Okay. But as soon as you make a advance care directive, it overrides any prior medical power of attorney. So if you had a medical power of attorney in the past, but you make an advance care directive that overrides the medical power of attorney, you essentially, any medical power of attorney made after the introduction of advanced care directive is still technically functioning. It can be used in some sense, but I would say it's a very unwise thing to do. It's very much up for challenge, I would say if you are wanting to appoint someone to make medical decisions for you, the advanced care directive is the way to do it. And as I said, contact your local GP or your local hospital. They're, they're very keen to have people complete these because they recognize, and that's one of the areas where, where a lot of support came for the changes was the medical profession and the hospitals and the nurses, because it means that they're in a position. A much more clear position in relation to dealing with often families who are in distress. And so they're very keen to have people create their advanced care directives, put them upon their medical file so they have ready access to them if they need them. So, as I said, it's it. It is something that I'm not sure if it's still happening, but I remember down here in Frankston, they used to have a service where nurses would provide assistance with drafting advanced care directives. The documents are available online. Through the state trustees and elsewhere. Yeah. For people to fill them out or take them to their GP and fill 'em out. Often gps will have them, especially if they deal with a lot of older people. And as I said, I'd encourage everybody to get advance care directive in place because it really does, as you say, often in very difficult to an emergency situations, clarifies a lot of things and allows you to make it clear about what kind of treatments or lack of treatment that you wanna receive in certain circumstances. The one thing I would also add that I think is a very good thing that I would hope if there's gonna be changes in relation to powers of attorney are also included is, and it's often something that doesn't get talked about enough, is the support person role. That can be appointed as part of the advanced care directive. It essentially allows someone not to make decisions, but to support someone in making their own decisions, which allows them legal access to medical records, to attend certain medical appointments to discuss their medical issues with medical treatment practitioners. This, I think, is a really good innovation because one, it recognizes that capacity is not an on and off switch. Capacity is a spectrum. Again, it fluctuates changes. You can have a situation where someone is very cogent and therefore is able to make kind of engage very well, but sometimes they have bad days. The support person is able to support them for as long as possible in making their own decisions, and rather than just as soon as someone is determined as not having capacity, or it's a question of their capacity, that they're no longer engaged in the process. It allows for people to support people to make their own decisions. But also have the legal right to access things like medical records or to overcome the kind of privacy requirements of engaging with medical practitioners. Those things. I think it would be very useful to see that in relation to hours of attorney more generally, so that people support people in making financial decisions. So talk to their mortgage broker, their bank on their behalf, those kind of things. Engage with solicitors and support'em, engaging with solicitors or commanders or whatever it might be. And so that similarly, how a support person can engage with our medical practitioners in supporting someone making their own decisions. Because it really is challenging to navigate all of this. Uh, you know, when I went through it, you know, my father used to work in the courts, so I've always had a will, you know? Mm-hmm. So for me, I had a pretty high level of literacy when it comes to both my own health and also the legal system. But I found it really challenging to navigate. It's very, yes. Yep. So to be able to have a support person and, and the fact that we are not taught it at school just does my head in, you know, like, this is something we all need to be aware of because it, it comes back to knowing our rights and how we can actually make sure that we're protected. Yes. The, I would say that taking the time to go through the process of developing a plan in relation to these three kind of pillars of estate planning. Is actually a means by which you can protect your, to kind of go back to what we began this discussion in relation to elder abuse, the process of going through and engaging with doctors, lawyers, community members, discussing these issues with people in your community, going through the planning process, it's actually a really good means to protect yourself from being controlled or coerced because you can kind of point to those documents and say, well, that's, that's all sorted. You know, I don't need to do that. And also having people aware of the decisions that you've made means that they're not gonna be kind of, they're gonna be aware that if there's any traumatic changes. In relation to your situation. So if someone starts coming in and declaring that you are doing X, Y, and Z, but you know that they're not the power of attorney, or they're not the executor, or they're not, they shouldn't be involved in this, then that's puts in, it raises those red flags. So, as I said, this process I would encourage everybody to do at a relatively young age. You know, really this is something that people should be, as you say, taught from a relatively young age as part of the kind of things that everyone should potentially do, and especially once they reach a certain age or have a certain degree of property in particular. But in particular with the advanced care directive, it's really something that I think, you know, bit like when you visit a new gp, you've gotta fill out like a background medical information sheet. Part of that process I would suggest is that there's a suggestion that you create an advance care directive whenever you engage, and potentially a similar, when engaging. If the situation in relation to powers of attorney were a little less fraught, then you could have a similar situation with powers of fraternity and solicitors. So, as I said, in a lot of ways the, that's the kind of three pillars, and they are very important if you want to make a clear plan and protect yourself and your family in relation to when you become, get closer to the end of your life. And in relation to the advance care directive, I was fortunate enough to attend a symposium last year in Adelaide. It was run by Advanced Care Planning Australia, and we have links to them on the website and we'll include them in the show notes. They run regular workshops throughout the year in various locations across Australia. Also palliative care, whether it be Australia or your local state organization. They also run programs in advanced care planning on a regular basis. So we'll definitely include that because I know. That the detail that you go into is really important, both from, you know, a daughter who's had her mother go through the process, through my own experience with my car accident. And then also my best friend is an emergency doctor, and so she, she sees, uh mm-hmm. The need and, and how important those forms are when something bad does happen and you end up in an emergency department. Exactly. So, yeah, they've, they're very, very important documents to do. Is there anything else that you think that we should talk about in relation to protecting your rights and how you can do that? Maybe the one area that we haven't touched on Will is perhaps the importance of these documents in relation to business. And because I just always feel that that's such a, an added layer on top of things as well. Mm-hmm. Because you have a, a larger duty of care. So it really amplifies the importance of these documents, doesn't it? Well, this is where we get really into the weeds of things in relation to, we don't, let's not get too weedy. We won't get too weedy in relation to the ownership of businesses, especially when we are talking private businesses. So private corporations, not public ones, public ones, we'll leave that. That's very weedy. Getting into the jungle. That's getting the jungle if we're going there. But in terms of private companies and businesses, it is very complicated. And I would encourage, I would often encourage people to try and manage the transition. A transition or a, a plan in relation to transition in relation to the ownership of their business and the selling of their business well before they're in a position where it's gotta be dealt with via a will or dealt with via power of attorney. Now, that's not always possible, but kind of planning. The next steps in relation to a business is part of managing a business Well, and they're absolutely, you know, can be really difficult, especially if a family member who's an executive's gotta step in to a business they have no idea about and try and manage either the sale or the continued running of, or family members being bequeathed the business they have no idea about. And so it can be really difficult, you know, because there's so many different moving parts in relation to business suppliers, employees, um, all those different things. Debts, liabilities, wages, wages, still needing to be paid on a weekly basis. Exactly. You know, all these things. Yeah. So that's why I say, if at all possible, for anybody who does own a business or runs a business. Have those, it's got a name where you kind of have a plan for the eventuality that you will no longer be available to succession plans. I think there's a couple of, yeah, so there's a couple of terms that they can use. Yeah. When I used to work at the Royal Botanic Gardens, they referred to it like if any incident happened, like so if the power went out or you know, it was just part of the business continuity plan, so it would, yep. Business continuity, succession planning, fall under succession planning if it has to actually transition hands. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, and Business Victoria and also I think Small Business Australia and, and all of those sort of government business organizations and we website resources for that website. Really good templates for it too. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's something that people should take the time when doing their general planning in relation to their business. They should include. Planning in relation to successional continuity planning and the idea being that if something were to happen that the business is able to continue because it is a separate entity on the person that owns it and it will as separate legal entity. It will continue, it will continue to have its liabilities and responsibilities, but as I said, so in order for the business not to fail upon someone's passing or some kind of accident where they lose capacity, it is really important to have those continuity plans in place and those succession plans in place. Perhaps the last thing I'll say in terms of will making an estate planning estate, so I don't, I don't forget to include it. I mentioned earlier about the perspective that I bring in relation to having a family violence background and the kind of, I guess a risk mitigation and conflict management background is that. You should always turn your mind to beyond a lot of these technical questions, and this goes broadly across all three of those pillars and even included in business, is to turn your mind to risk mitigation and conflict mitigation when developing your estate planning. What do I mean by that? The amount of families that irrevocably break apart upon, particularly the passing of a parent or a patriarch or matriarch of a family is significant. And so I would say to those patriarchs and matriarchs and anyone in between that they take the time to consider the existing tensions and complex within their families or their beneficiaries when developing their plans. It goes back to what I was mentioning about the executors. If you have two executors that hate each other, can't agree on anything, don't appoint them both as executives, if you know that there's a brewing conflict about a particular property, make it clear to both parties about what you are wanting to do in relation to that property and make it clear in the will in relation to that property. It's impossible to fully prevent conflict in these circumstances.'cause often the conflict is not necessarily just about the property. It's often, you know, wrapped up in emotional and psychological issues. But if you can very easily exacerbate conflict by poor estate planning, that hasn't taken into account these considerations when you've been developing these legal documents. So taking the time to both communicate about and consider the existing tensions within your family and the potential conflicts that could arise. Is really important. It's not something that people talk about often in relation to estate planning. I think it's a critical thing that because no one wants their legacy, the last thing they leave to their family and friends to cause significant conflict. Well, most people don't. Some people do. Some people wanna see the world burn, but as I said, the majority of people don't want their legacy to be one of conflict and would hate to think that because they didn't take the time to consider those things when developing their estate plan has led to a fracture within their family to whom they're bequeathing these property in order for them to benefit from, and the hope being that they'll live more financially or securely or fulfilled lives after that. So. Taking that time I think is really important and it's the one thing I, if anybody takes away anything from listening to me lather on for, for this time is that, that they should turn their mind to those, those issues, not just the kind of technical legal issues that we've touched on today. I think that is a perfect place for us to finish. Will I totally agree with you and I think that, you know what's become very clear as well in the documents are important to make sure that we get them right because they represent us and our wishes and our values, but it's also having the conversations surrounding those documents that are really, really important. It goes back to what we're talking about in relation to community, that your community should be aware of your wishes, even if they don't necessarily have a copy of the document. So can be uncomfortable, talk about these things with the family and friends and so that. Your community's aware of what your wishes are and they can help support making sure that those wishes happen. Thank you so much for being with us today, will Absolute pleasure. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, brought to you by Critical Info. 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