RITUALS of HEALING: Swimming, Community, and the OCEAN

The ocean has a raw, powerful way of healing us—body, mind, and soul. In this episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I'm joined by Fiona Basile, an internationally acclaimed photographer and writer who discovered that open water swimming is far more than just a hobby. It’s a lifeline, a community, and a space where stories of resilience and transformation come to life. Her stunning book, Immerse, shares faces and places shaped by the healing embrace of Melbourne’s Port Phillip Bay.

Fiona’s journey into open water swimming began during the challenging COVID lockdowns and quickly became a daily ritual that transformed her world. Through her lens—and interviews with 35 incredible swimmers—Immerse tells stories of people who found courage, connection, and hope in cold, shared waters. Their stories reveal how swimming can change not only bodies but the way we face life, death, and everything in between.

Beyond the ocean, Fiona’s storytelling took her to Rwanda, where she witnessed stories of deep forgiveness and healing in a country still rising from its painful past. These moments of grace remind us all how powerful it can be to share our stories, face our fears, and embrace the connections that make life meaningful. This episode invites you to dive into the water, community, and stories that inspire us to live fully—even in the face of death.

Key points from our discussion:

●      The transformative power of open water swimming and community connection.

●      How storytelling illuminates the human experience, especially around adversity and grief.

●      The grounding power of rituals and being in nature.

●      Deep insights from Fiona’s experiences in Rwanda on resilience and forgiveness.

If you enjoyed this episode, please let us know! Share your thoughts, subscribe, and help us spread the word about the importance of discussing death openly.

Check out Fiona’s work:

●      Fiona Basile's book: Immerse

●      Fiona’s websitefor her photography and projects.

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,

Catherine

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Transcript

0:02

When I think of the level of forgiveness that people have had to come to, I, I have nothing to complain about, like women whose sons or husbands children were killed by the neighbor. They now visit that man in prison and have adopted him as their son out of forgiveness and because. They don't want the violence and that cycle to continue. Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info. And I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared. Don't be caught dead. Acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations, and recognizes their connection to land, sea, and community. We pay our respects to their elders past, present, and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. Today I'm speaking with Fiona Basile, an international award-winning photographer and writer who's traversing the globe in search of faces and places that enrich our world. A lover of open waters. She's taken to swimming in Melbourne's Port Phillip Bay as often as possible, which has been an inspiration behind her Latest photographic book, Immerse and Wall Collections, ocean Swimmers, and Ocean Deep. Thank you so much for being with us today, Fiona. Thanks so much for having me. It's a joy. Now I've had the pleasure of getting to know you over these probably last 18 months, two years through the Frankston Business Collective. Uh, and I was extremely excited when I saw the beautiful book Immerse that you launched. Was it last year now? Uh, it was officially launched in November, 2023. So now over a year. So all of last year was about traveling with it, the author talks, sharing it, getting out into the shops, and yeah, sharing the stories and photos of Immersed. So it's over a year old now, coming probably up to 18 months. It's amazing. Oh my goodness. And, and so, okay. 18 months it is then, and I, what I love about it is that it's not just about the photos, it's about the storytelling. So tell me, how did you get started? I think Immerse started once I had a body of photographs that I had collected from my own open water swimming practice. I have a GoPro that I use in the water and I had been posting to social media and there'd been a really positive response to the impact of those photographs on social media, social, and then once, because I started my open water swimming practice in COVID in that second year, as many people did. And once the restrictions lifted, you know, we started, uh, there was a group of us that were swimming together. We started to get to know each other personally, spending more time with each other. And by the end of 2022, I had this body of photos. But equally, I just felt in what I was hearing with the stories and the people who are now starting to call my friends, I just thought there could be something in this in terms of sharing the stories, sharing the photographs. But I must admit. When the decision to start creating Immerse happened in that January of 2023. At that point, I thought it was mostly going to be about the body of photographs and you know, really celebrating the beauty of our bay and open water swimming. But once I started to sit down with people and hear their stories and hear how being in the water had impacted their lives positively, how being part of community had had such a big impact on their lives. I just came to understand that this book is going to be about more than photos. It was going to be about people's stories. And by way of example. The first person that I sat down with was a gentleman who, you know, I'd been swimming with for a year and you know, you think you know someone, but it wasn't until I sat down with him and he shared that he had actually considered taking his life in the water and it was the water that now saved him and being part of the community. And over the course of the interviews, there were 35 people who feature in Immerse. That wasn't an uncommon story where people really shared that the water had saved them literally. And so, yeah, I think Immerse like the ocean evolved, it had its ebbs and flows, but in the end it became about showcasing and celebrating the beauty of the ocean, but also sharing these stories of how the water and how being part of community has really had an impact, a positive impact on the people who feature in Immerse. So yeah, I mean it's had an impact in terms of community, uh, connection, a deeper connection to ourselves being in the water, deeper connection to each other, to the natural world, the water, you know, even to the transcendence. So I just think. Yeah, it's an, it was an evolving process, but what has now Eventuated is a beautiful book that shares the photographs and shares these very heartfelt, raw, inspiring, moving stories, which I will forever be grateful to those swimmers who said yes to being part of the Immerse project and what is it? Because, uh, I recently had an experience where we were invited to do a, a cold water, early morning cold water dip. I have to say that I wasn't brave enough to do that. I was concerned about how my, my nerves might react on my, my leg with my chronic pain. But I, I opted for the, the walk along the beach. But I did say that I, as part of a recent festival, I did do it. I actually went and did the sauna and then the dip and in the bay and the sauna and the dip, and, and I'm like. I can see the attraction to this. I think for me personally, it was the sauna that I was more attracted to. But, but tell me what is it that that is about the experience that you think that is something that motivates you to get out of bed every morning? Like what is it like, can you talk me through the process of how you started and the impact that you felt personally, and then why you still do it? Yes. So why I started was taking you back to the second year of COVID, that deep, those restrictions that we had previous to COVID Lockdowns. I was an avid traveler. I would often spend time overseas for my photography and writing work, and I love. Traveling, it brings me a lot of life. So by the second year of our lockdowns, there was one evening in June, I just decided I need to get up tomorrow morning, take my camera gear down to the water and just take some photographs for the pure joy of it. And so that's what I did. It was the 3rd of June, 2021, and I was walking down the Seaford Pier with my camera gear, and that's when I noticed a small group of swimmers. And off Seaford Pier, we have a series of marker poles, and they're about 150 meters off shore. Well, when I had gotten to the end of the pier and this small group of swimmers were at one of those poles, a pot of dolphins swam by, which was just so exhilarating. And I thought, well, if this was the reason I was meant to be here for this experience. That's it. And I videotaped it. So it's on my website. The video you hear the swimmers, they go, wow. Wow. Because the dolphins are swimming past them and it was amazing. And so that encounter, when I had walked back to the shore, one of the swimmers had invited me, her name's Karen. She said, why don't you come, we are here every morning. Come along tomorrow. And anyway, to cut a very long story short, I did go back the next day and that was the 4th of June, 2021. It was freezing. There is the photograph in Immerse of that first time I dipped in the bay, taken by one of the other swimmers. And I'm red raw 'cause it's freezing. And so. I suppose little would I know months later the impact that that decision would make in my life, or the impact it would have in my life. So for me personally, it's the physical. You know, I started in winter, so there's the adrenaline, there's the dopamine, there's all of those good endorphins. I suppose in that time of COVID. Even though we were keeping our distance and coming down in our masks, it still gave us a social interaction. And it was something so, you know, it gave us such life, you know, there was laughter, you're screaming and squealing because it's freezing. So there's that social interaction, the emotional, you know, in terms of creating new friends and creating this new habit and new friendships local, because we are all confined to that five kilometer radius. And so we were all in this, you know, washing machine of the bay, this our area here together, experiencing that. And then I certainly, I come from a Catholic faith background, but I do believe in God and just that wonder and awe of being in the ocean at sunrise. The beauty, the ever changing light as a photographer in 10 minutes, the light can change from before the sun is up over the horizon. It could be the Moy, pinks and blues. And then as the sun comes up, you get the golden yellows and oranges, and then that metallic blue as it's sort of getting more harsh, the light. And so that beauty is, you know, uh. Sometimes a bit unexplainable because you have to be in it to feel it. And you know, I suppose thinking about, well this is how I get to start my day. Immersed in the water, surrounded by this beauty, witnessing the changing light, being with friends, laughing.'cause we do laugh a lot. And now, so it's been about three and a half years, so 2021 and we are 25. It'll be my fourth year. On the 4th of June, 2025. You know, it has become a daily practice. I mean obviously there are some days I miss if I'm unwell or if I'm traveling, but otherwise. It's a daily practice and it's a daily practice now for many people since COVID and since open water swimming has become more well known and appreciated. More people are doing it. So I think it's all of those things. Catherine, I mean, I've experienced it personally. I can't imagine my life now without it. But anecdotally, being a, a journalist and a photographer and capturing people's stories anecdotally, you know, I hear those similar themes about the mental health, the benefits from mental health, that clarity and social interaction, and the friendships. Without a doubt, the sense of community comes always to the fore. The fact that we have a beautiful group of people that we can enjoy this beautiful practice with, and when it's not a club. There's no rules. People are responsible for themselves. It's free, it's accessible. We're able to enjoy it. And yeah, so I think for all of those reasons, that's why I continue to get into the Bay when it's 13 degrees and getting colder and why many of us still do and why it continues to grow. And you know, our stories, I've traveled with Immerse across to the UK and I've done a couple of author talks over there. The stories are similar in terms of that, that love of being in the water and the beauty and the social connection, the laughter, the banter. Yeah. And we are so lucky here. We have this beautiful resource, port Phillip Bay most of the time. It's fantastic. It's clean. And so for us to be able to really enjoy it and to feel that gratitude for that as well is, yeah, it's life changing. It is life changing. Yeah, and it has been for me and it has been for many people, and that's what I keep hearing as I continue to speak with people and interview them and hear about what is it about the water. I think the water is healing itself, being in the water, by the water. I'm sure scientifically they've done all the tests to tell us that it's of so much benefit, but certainly anecdotally, I can speak from personal experience of just how beneficial it's been, as can all of the people I've interviewed as well. Is it also that regularity of perhaps ritual that every morning you, you get up and, and you are seeing parts of of nature and the world that not many people get to see or, or even perhaps don't stop to take the time to see. Yeah, I think you raise a good point. There is certainly a ritual about it, even from the night before, you know when you're preparing all of your swim gear and getting everything ready so that it's an easy thing to just get up, put your bathers on your jacket, and grab your bucket and go down. And then there's the ritual. Of when, for instance, I arrive or we arrive, we tend to walk down to the end of Seaford Pier because we just like to check out what the water's doing, how clear is it? Hmm. Can we see any fish, any banjo, sharks, any stingrays, just checking out the conditions and we just like to walk out, we chat. It's just like a touch base and you know, then we come back and then there's a little bit more banter and then probably 15, 20 minutes has, has passed and it's like, I suppose we should get in now. And, and then, you know, it's the getting in at the moment because it's starting to get cold. Certainly there is, I feel it is, uh, urging on addiction because you're really, you are feeling those endorphins going and there's more of a pool in the body because you want that hit again. Whereas in summer it's a bit easier, it's warm, it's lovely. But the other essential ritual, which. Is a must is the coffee afterwards. You know, we all gather afterwards for a coffee. We're all rugged up. We're, you know, in our socks and our funky sandals and we're all looking like the next top models, not we wa in our big, uh, toasty jackets and we get to the cafe. But that is certainly part of the ritual as well because, you know, we've been in the water, we're exhilarated. We've probably seen, you know, some marine life or some fish if we're really lucky. We've had an encounter with dolphins. We had one of our swimmers, Clive, he had a calf, its mother and the bull dolphin for 10 minutes. Swimming around him and he was on cloud nine. But in his retelling the story, we were all there with him. You know, the joy and, yeah, I suppose again, that opportunity just to connect, we're all very different people. We come from different walks of life, we're different ages, and yet the water is the great equalizer. And so it's what brings us together. So afterwards for coffee, you know, there's that continued banter. We talk about the swim, how cold it was, what the conditions were like, what the wind was doing, what the tide was doing. Well, so yeah, and, and maybe the other thing about ritual I've come to learn there is something about starting the day with your feet grounded. In nature, so in the sand, and then in the water, you know, it is an opportunity to just disconnect and for those of us who pray, it's an opportunity to just take a moment to say thank you. One of the really interesting things in the latest rounds of interviews that I've done with people is there's been a lot more connection to family and friends who have died and by our friends being in the water. It's been their way to remember them. Like they might say prayer because they had a special connection to that deceased family member through water. Mm-hmm. And that's something which I is different to Immerse number one, to now the interviews I'm doing for Immerse two. It could be that I'm asking slightly different questions and I do ask about ritual and practice. Do you have a practice? And so that's been a really beautiful reflection where people have shared Yeah, you know, my dad loved the water and he taught me everything there is to know about the water. And so every morning I just take a moment to say, Hey, there, another person in Immersed two has lost a family member who was an open water swimmer. And so when she's swimming in the water, she feels that, uh, one, he would be proud of her to see, you know, how strong she's in the water. But two, she just feels that that's a special connection to her loved one. So. Yeah, I think I've become a lot more aware of that. Just that, I suppose the invisible connection between all of life when we're in the water, you know, we're connected by all of these oceans and we are one small part, but we're part of something bigger. And yeah, just having that moment in the morning before the craziness begins, before we go off to our other work or before we drop off the kids to school or before we have to face that morning traffic. This is a chance to ground, to get centered, disconnect, be it one with nature and just to. Get in that water and swim or dip or just get wet. We're not all swimmers. It's not by any means, you know, we don't have marathon swimmers. Some people just get wet and get cold. Others just go out to one of the poles. Others might swim a kilometer. It's not really about that. I think it's just about the showing up and being there. And then the coffee afterwards. And I do have to ask you, you said bucket, that was something that you take with you. What on earth do you do with the bucket? Okay, so imagine a big plastic, uh, not your traditional looking bucket, but the big container plastic container. Often you might put drinks in it. Oh yeah. Or you put your gardening. Yes, we all have those. Okay. And so in your bucket, we call it, in your container bucket, is a hot water bottle because when you get out of the water, you need hot water to. You know, warm yourself up. That's our change room, that's our shower. And in the bucket as well, are your clothes, is your jacket where you put it in. You could have your goggles, a couple of pairs of swimming caps. Now, you know, we've got the gloves and the be, uh, the little booties, the neoprene because it's starting to get cold. Or you might have a neoprene cap, so it's all your belongings. And we all walk down at seafood, we've just got a bench and that's our area where we put our buckets. And because we've grown quite a bit now, we've spread out to the other side. There's another bench and we also have a bench down on the sand. And so it's just wherever you can find a spot. Sometimes the dogs are sitting up on the bench and so you've gotta, you know, make room for them. So you've gotta put your bucket on the ground, but it's essentially what you carry everything in. And then some people will, when they get out of the cold, they'll empty their bucket, put all their stuff on the seat, stand in it. And then pour the hot water over them while they're in the bucket so that it captures all that warm water. So it's just a way of keeping warm that little bit longer. So that's great. You'd be amazed at how we've evolved from those first years when I literally came down in my dressing gown and slippers and socks and a beanie and you know, you just did it there in the broad open and then, you know, then you might have caught gone, oh, they've got these really great big jackets that you can use. Oh, let's get one of those and then under that you can get changed. Oh, so now actually there's shoes that have some lining. Well, that'll keep us a bit warmer and, oh, actually there's these neoprene gloves and booties. Always evolving, love it. And we're always learning and going, Hmm, what, what's, what's latest technology or gadget can we use now? And you know, we, we laugh because yes, we have evolved. We've certainly evolved as to, but we still look funny. I just, I, I have the image of, and I, I think it's so clever that a, the hot water bottle, 'cause I love my hot water bottles, but to actually then create a little shower with a bath, you know, and I, I just think that's amazing. Yes, yes. Um, I, I love it. The, the innovation. Fantastic. Yes. Yes. Um, so let's maybe take a step back prior to Immerse. So you've always been a, a photographic journalist, you've traveled the world. Tell me a little bit about how you got started in that profession as well, and, and what drew you to it and what, what have you seen when you've traveled? What's some of the things that stick out for you? I think my love for storytelling and photography and listening to people started at a young age thanks to my grandparents. My grandparents and my parents are immigrants from Sicily, and so particularly my maternal grandmother, who I'll call Nonna, she was a great storyteller. You know, she would sing, she knew poetry. She would tell stories of the war, world War II that had taken place and the impact of her and the family in Sicily. And so I, I think from a young age, I just was fascinated with those stories. I, I think I always enjoyed being creative. I've always loved using my hands and creating, making cards, drawing, writing. So I suppose I had a, a love for those things early on. But then with my nana and her storytelling, and because we did travel a lot as a family, which we were very fortunate to do, that really fueled my fire for adventure and curiosity about different places and people. So eventually I went on to study, uh, arts law. I majored in journalism, and that was at Deacon in Geelong. And when I finished the journalism, I got a cadetship at the Geelong Advertiser, the daily newspaper. And I did that there. And it was really there that I actually realized. Hardcore mainstream journalism was not for me. So there's a thing in our industry called the Death Knock where you have to go and knock on a family's door after there's been a tragic death in the family and get the story. And I hated that. I really did not enjoy that. Of course, the family would not want to speak to me after the loss of a loved one. You know, there's the court rounds and I don't know, I just, I suppose it just didn't, it wasn't a fit for me. The other thing was I really, it was there that my, I saw the photographers going out and I thought, I actually really loved photography and I'd always loved photography during high school as well. So I had a choice. I needed to go back to Melbourne to finish off the last two years of my law degree. Or I stay on as a journalist, stay on as a cadet journalist and continue that path. And so I made a choice to go back to Melbourne, finish off law, take up photography studies. And so from that time, so for now 25 plus years, I have in one way or another been working as a photographer or a writer, but with. People are like essentially faith-based organizations, not-for-profits, social services type organizations. I suppose I went after the type of storytelling that enriched people's lives, that inspired, that helped bridge understanding, that helped give voice to people that otherwise didn't have voice. And so that's, that's where I have lived in the last 25 years. So I work predominantly with faith-based organizations. As I said, my own faith background is Catholic, so I'm very comfortable in that space. I love hearing people's stories of faith and spirit and God, I travel a lot. I do a lot of travel work. And so you asked what are some of the places I've been to? Oh, many. Many. But I can tell you there are two. Places that really stand out. I had an opportunity to travel to Malawi. It was in about 2010. I want to say. Gosh, it feels so long ago because I, I had an opportunity, Columbia University in America sent me over because they were working with men and women in Sub-Saharan Africa. So Malawi being one of those places to train them as non-physician clinicians in emergency obstetric care. So essentially that just means they are specifically training men and women. To be surgeons in emergency cesareans or anytime a woman was going into labor and there were any complications, these men and women were specifically trained. Now, it was a little bit controversial at the time because they're not the traditionally trained doctors or surgeons, but in these areas where there's a brain drain where many of the qualified doctors and surgeons are leaving for the UK or the us. The program that Columbia University with a range of others had implemented were to do this specific training. So I had an opportunity to spend about a month in Malawi documenting the work of these non-physician clinicians, spending time in the hospitals, meeting these men and women, you know, so we'll call them, well, non-physician clinicians, healthcare practitioners, just. Their stories, gathering their stories. And what culminated from that was an exhibition in Washington, uh, with the photographs. And Columbia University used the photographs as part of their educational material and promotional material talking about this type of work. But the then Princess of Denmark, Mary, princess Mary, she was at that exhibition and she opened it. And so I have photographs and I have a beautiful photograph with Mary from that opening. So that was a highlight. And I gave her Vegemite and Tim Tams and a few of my That's great. I love it. And then the second one was Rwanda, my most recent trip to Rwanda. So, and before you go there, I might just ask a few questions about Malawi. Sure. So I'm assuming that. There was quite a few complications with the lack of physicians in that area and, and that was the reason why they were actually hoping to, to have some sort of pilot program. Was that the reasoning behind what they were doing? Yeah, so the thinking was to train these men and women with specific skills around emergency obstetric care so that if and when anything might happen during childbirth, they would have the skills to save mother's lives. And it was all part of the United Nations sustainable development goals. They wanted to reduce maternal mortality and birth mortality in places like Malawi. And from what I can remember, it was having an impact. It was successful. These men and women were making a positive impact because they came from those local areas. They were rural and remote, and they had the skills in those situations to save lives. So yes, they were making an impact. And it's not just though the healthcare professionals in places like Malawi, you know, it's also the infrastructure around the roads. Many people live very remotely. So trying to get out to women who are in those remote areas. We are talking roads with massive potholes. Then there's the ambulances, you know, not having enough ambulances. Then there's the infrastructure around the hospitals. You know, electricity went out often having access to water. So the training of these non-physician clinicians was one part of really a myriad of. Issues around reducing maternal mortality and for mothers and children during emergency incidents. But yes, I mean, this is years ago now and it's probably still going. It was definitely having an impact, a positive impact, and that's why these universities, I mean, we are talking professor from the Karolinska Institute in Sweden heading up the project, working with Columbia University, working with other universities. So these professors and surgeons and physicians are the people training these men and women to be these specialized healthcare practitioners so that in these specific circumstances they can help reduce maternal mortality and childbirth mortality. So yeah, it was a really important project and I mean, look, for me even to be sharing this, I think, but for my job as a journalist and a photographer, and I. You know, I wouldn't have known that. And it's amazing how it opens your world to what's going on in other places and what's important, you know, lifesaving stuff. But it's so important that your role is there to be the one who documents and tell the story. Because so many times, and certainly from my experience with working with the Botanic Gardens and as you know, a scientific institution, that that was, uh, both, you know, environmentally and in other ways, um, the people are really amazing at what they do, but they're just not really great storytellers. They don't, they don't have the skills or the funding or the ability to actually document what they're doing and then convey it in a way in which other people can understand and, and see the impact that they're making because not. All storytelling is effective. When you're looking at grant funding and those sorts of things, by just a report, you have to actually tell the human stories behind it. So that was very progressive thinking on their behalf to actually engage you, to be the The person that tells those stories for them. Yes. And to capture beautiful photographs. You know, we know the impact of beauty. Beauty can help us, take us places. And so if you can capture these stories with dignity and with beauty and with sensitivity, you know, I was in hospitals photographing women and sometimes girls, young girls holding their newborn babies, and so there's a sensitivity around that. Seeking permission, you know. Obviously it wasn't always successful. I was in a operating theater when it didn't go well and you know, you've gotta make choices about, okay, what do I do with this? And yeah, but it is a specific role. I think people, you know, are good in their jobs or what they're doing, but that might not mean that they, they're able to capture it and to share it and to package it up or to know how best to, to share those stories or those photographs. And particularly in today's world, there are so many avenues for us to share stories and photographs, but it's how do we do it well? You know, how do we do it respectfully? How do we do it? Yeah. In a way that I suppose meets its purpose. And for me, my purpose is it's about building connection, building understanding, listening to people, sharing stories. It's the humanity. There is more that connects us than divides us. And in today's world, where we see what's going on with all of the conflict, the division, the uncertainty. I think if we can capture, even if it's in our own backyards, those beautiful stories of community and connection of meaning, then. Well, that's my job. That's my call. That's what I feel like I was here to do and that's what I love doing, you know, in seafood or Rwanda or Malawi. Doesn't matter. And tell me, um, how has, you know, your ethics developed over time and, and how has it been informed by your faith? Like, how, 'cause, 'cause like you said, there, there's so much sensitivity around and, and we will talk a bit in a moment about Rwanda and, and what you experienced there, but, but there's so much sensitivity around storytelling because you are telling someone else's story. You're documenting and telling that for them. Mm-hmm. So I'd love to, to get your thoughts on firstly the, the sensitivity and the, the ethics around that. And then, and whether you think that, how much your faith has come in to, to shape your, your thoughts around that. Yeah, so I think, well, as I said before, I think I made the choice to work with organizations or people or, you know, basically follow those types of stories that match my heart or match my sensitivity. So it tends to be that they're the people that I attract or that I'm working with, which means that, you know, similarly they're attracted to me in that way of that type of storytelling. But so when it comes to the actual storytelling, yeah, I mean, obviously there's a sensitivity around being sure that the person knows what the interview's about, what's the purpose like, where's it going to be, why are we doing this interview? Sometimes they approach me or I might approach them, or the editor gets called and you know, I'm assigned a story. Or like Immerse, you know, it's come from my own desire to do something, but I think it's about. Just speaking with the person saying, look, this is what I'm doing. This is why I'm doing it. There's the listening. You know, it's genuinely wanting to listen to the story and look, you know, not everyone agrees with this, but I am very happy with showing my story before it gets published. If it's an intimate story where I've spent an hour or an hour and a half listening to someone's story and they have beared some really personal and beautiful and moving things, which is no doubt what I want to include, because that's the essence of what they're trying to convey. Whether it's something that's happened in their life that they've overcome or you know, it could be anything, I'm okay with checking it with them. Because I could have got something wrong. I mean, you know, I, I record, but I'm still taking what I've heard. I'm jiggling, you know, rephrasing and trying to paraphrase them, putting in some direct quotes. And often it's hard to condense an hour and a half of really beautiful time with someone to a 1200 word article. You know, so that in itself is a skill, you know, sometimes it could be longer if you've got a longer publication, but let's say on average it's about 1200 words. So to capture the essence of someone's story, one just one part, it's not their whole story, obviously it's 1200 words is, well, it's a privilege. I, I think every interview is sacred ground. I think there is merit in the interview process itself, just the sitting with listening, bearing witness to someone's story. I mean, you might have a list of questions and then you go completely left a field which you know, you would know about. And that's, that's when I would say, well, that's the spirit, you know, coming into it because you know it's alive, it's uh, you know, it's, might go in a different tangent and that's okay. So yeah, certainly my own faith background, I suppose it's. Just having a sensitivity around people's experience, people's experience of God, things which we can't quite explain that are a mystery. That's okay. I'm okay with that. I find that really fascinating. And yeah, I think it's just being gentle. I'm not out to, you know, it's not like I'm the hardcore journo. I need to get your story and make a buck out of exposing you. That is not me. And that's the choice I made many years ago. My stories and my interviewing, and the reason I'm doing this, I. Is to bear witness to the story you wanna share. And there is merit in that. We all have stories in us, and if I get to publish it and others get to read it with the blessing of the person whose story I've just laid bare, it is the best. I love it. I absolutely love it when a story is done well, I'm wrapped. Every story though is hard. You know, when you sit, when I sit down to start it, every time I'm like, you know, I say a little prayer, I, I light a candle, I've got my own little process, and I'm like, help me share what needs to be shared. Like the essence. And, you know, again, I've got one and a half hours worth into 1200 words. And then good enough is good enough. My goodness. I don't envy you because look, I, I certainly am, and we've spoken about this previously, about the fact that the process that I, I do is very limited, um, editing with my podcast editor, Livy, and all of the, the collateral is shown and approved before it's, it's publicly, you know, shown and, and. That came as a surprise to me that I was the, the odd one out, that the norm is not to show. So I feel when I sit down to someone and you, you touched on something really well then about it sort of being a very special moment when you are listening to someone tell their story. And I find that it's in that, that process, you're also capturing someone's legacy because when you document someone's story, that story is then, you know, forever recorded. Uh, yes. And that's why I also go through that due process of making sure that someone is, is comfortable with what's being recorded. Because I don't think people really understand that nowadays, that really, once you record something, it really is out there one forever. Um, so how, how does that. Impact on your process with that legacy that, that you leave and the storytelling, because like you said, it is super hard. Like I, I don't have to condense my interviews to 1200 words. Yeah. When I'm writing someone's story, I think it really comes down to when I'm listening to them, you sort of hear the bits in the interview where your heart moves. You sort of go, oh, that was beautiful, or, oh, you know, oh, you just, you start becoming sensitive in your own. Listening and feeling of, oh, that's gold, gold. And it might be a particular story. And that story captures the essence of that person. So, you know, I have interviewed a 100-year-old war veteran. He was an anthesis, I can never say that word, so please excuse me. Um, no, I thought you did pretty well. Yeah, good. And you know, he was telling me about the portrait of his wife on the wall, and he was showing me the photos and in the things that he was saying in explaining that. He has a great love of his wife of, I think it was over 60 years she had died. And so the other thing is when I'm listening in the interview and I'm asking the questions, you know, there's the facts about maybe for instance, for this man, it's his decorated history, all of the things that he did, the different wars that he was part of, because you know, it's a story that he's celebrated his 100th birthday and he is still in great shape and he's able to tell these stories. But I suppose as long as we are human and we have hearts, it's the stuff of the heart that gets us. And so when I hear those types of things, I'm like, oh, you know, and. You know, he loved his wife and it helped shape the photographs as well. So I, I can send you the link, but, you know, one of the photographs that I took is of him holding up his wedding photo with his wife, so that helps shape. Yeah. You know, so when I'm interviewing, I'm also getting a picture of, oh, okay, I'll have to make sure I get a photo of that, or what else can I see? So I think, I think it's just that over the years I have accepted that I, I'm not writing a person's life story in this article, but I'm capturing an essence of this person who they are, that he's been a decorated anesthetist over all this time. He's had all of these experiences, but at the heart of it, he's a man of deep faith and a man of deep love for his wife of many years who has now died, but he's still got her portrait. Up there. Beautiful painted portrait by an international artist that he tells me about when I enter the room. And I think that's the other thing. I'm often doing my interviews in people's homes, you know, and that that's the sacredness I'm being welcomed into someone's home. So it deserves preparation. It deserves research, it deserves me, you know, giving that person a call. Just checking. You're okay. Do you wanna see the questions first? By all means, these are just a guide. Sure. Don't worry, I'll write it up. But if you wanna, if you feel more comfortable seeing it, that's absolutely fine. It really does not worry me because I want them to feel that they have had agency as well, that they have had a role in sharing that legacy. And I think when I think of the word legacy, so I mean, let's go to Immerse, the amount of people who have just been absolutely chuffed because their words and photos have been immortalized in a book. Like that was a really beautiful thing to witness because often I'm writing the stories and I'm onto the next thing. I don't see the interviewee's reactions when they're reading the stories down the track. But here with Immerse, it's been so lovely to be amongst my friends who are in the book and who share the impact of the book and the impact of seeing each other's stories. Oh, I feel like I know so and so much better. Oh, you know, it was so beautiful to have a deeper understanding of this person because now I feel like I've got a deeper connection. Fiona, thank you for capturing part of my story in this book. And so it is with articles, it's that opportunity to capture something of that person, which can then be shared. With family, friends, others that you might never know you could touch hearts that you never know. Yeah. So I think that's really what's at the heart of it, is the heart. You know? Where are those moments that I'm listening going, oh, that was beautiful. This speaks to the person. Yes, there are the facts, but where did I feel my heart move? Where did I feel my spirit rise or fall? Or where is the beauty, the mystery? The, yeah. And I think that's the Paris storytelling. Yeah. It, it's funny that you say that because I, there are moments when you're speaking to someone and you, and you just know that there's that little gold nugget that they've just dropped. And you were, you were hoping that it was going to come, but you're never not quite sure about how it's going to, you know, emerge and Yeah. I, I do relate to that. Yeah. I think, can I just add, just quickly Sure. People often say to me, oh, I don't have anything interesting to say. I don't have anything to contribute. Ah, there's no stories in me. Not true, so not true. Everyone has a story that is unique to them, and in those everyday ordinary moments is where we find life and love and sadness, grief. Life and death and everything in between. This is it. Everyone's got a story to tell and so that's why I'll never be out of a job. I think that's so true and, and through the conversation that we've been having, one word that keeps coming up quite a bit is Essence, and I'm wondering whether that's the, uh, the next book title for you. Oh, essence. I think somebody might have suggested that. Ooh. Maybe I'll, I'll take it on note essence. Yeah. It's a beautiful word. I love it is, it's the essences, the life, the, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Now tell us, we've covered Malawi, but let's go to Rwanda where you have only, well, you know, as it, I would say recently returned, but, uh, it's been quite a few months now, and you've had time to, to process your experience over there. I'm, I'm sure, to some degree. Tell us a little bit about how that came about, what you did while you were over there and, and perhaps what the impact has been for you, uh, you know, since you've returned. Hmm. So I have a very dear friend, Gabrielle Marni, who I can say, 'cause I've written an article about her. She has been diagnosed with a terminal illness cancer, and this has been now a couple of years ago. And so not last year, the year before. So last year was 2024. So 2023, Gabby received her diagnosis and in November she was celebrating a milestone birthday. And so she decided to have a big celebration of life, you know, to really celebrate her life for her milestone birthday with her twin sister. And now there was a special guest at this celebratory gathering, a gorgeous woman called Chantel, who is from Rwanda now 30 years prior. Gabrielle was working for World Vision and last year marked the 30 year anniversary of the horrific genocide that took place in Rwanda. So at that time, it started around the sixth, 7th of April, lasted for a hundred days, even though it lasted for a lot longer in terms of the deaths that were taking place and the ramifications. But Gabrielle was posted to Rwanda as part of World Vision's, humanitarian aid assistance, and so. Gabby was there now 31 years ago, and over from memory five, about five years, was posted to Rwanda as part of the team to help rebuild following the genocide. And at that time she met Chantel who had herself survived the genocide. Her story alone. But Chantel's story is. A miracle and it's amazing and it just speaks to so much resilience. So they had stayed friends all of this time, and when Gabby was having her celebration, she invited Chantel and brought Chantel over for the celebration. So we all had the great pleasure of meeting Chantel. So this was in November, 2023. And you know, we were, she had stayed for a couple of months, I think, Chantel, while she was in Australia. And we had gatherings at Gabby's house and it just came up. Obviously, you know, a journalist, a photographer, I've never been to Rwanda. Gabrielle had mentioned that she would really love to go back to Rwanda, you know, it's been on her bucket list to return, just to see the progress and also to see what Chantel has done. To recreate and build something so special for her community. So that got the, uh, mind ticking and Chantel extended an invitation to Gabrielle. Gabrielle, come, I will host you at my place. And then that invitation was extended to a few of Gabrielle's friends and so. That is exactly what happened. So last year in July, Gabrielle, two of her longtime university friends and myself, we traveled to Rwanda. We were hosted by Chantel at the place that she has established, which is called Ishobe, which is Rwandan for resilience. And it's essentially a beautiful wellness center in the sense that it has accommodation. So we were housed in accommodation, beautiful accommodation in beautiful grounds, organic farming. There are cows, there is yoga, there is a cultural center library, and it is Chantel's vision. And she has in fact, created it to create this place. Where culture can be kept alive, where vulnerable people in the community can be employed. She supports 10 to 15 families in her village with the children's education, medical bills and so forth. So money raised through Ishobe and through Chantel's work goes out to the community. She hires the mothers from those families to work the farm. She hires vulnerable young people to staff isbe, so the Cook, and Manuel and Francois, the young lady who welcomes the guests. Then there other cow keepers. And so it's sustainable ecotourism, a developmental type system where everything that comes in goes back out to the community and it's sustaining. And she's, I mean, Chantel is remarkable. What she has achieved is remarkable. So having the opportunity to be there to photograph. To be there with Gabby. If there's one thing that I could say in Gabby's diagnosis. She has been taking her family and friends on this journey. I. With such poise and dignity and strength. You know, she's established platforms that help us keep track of how she's going. She has created a ritual we all gathered at her house when it was time for her to shave off her hair, and there was prayer, there was song, there was dance, there was time for reflection around the fire before the shaving. Then there was the celebration of life, which. Gave people an opportunity not waiting for Gabrielle to die. Let's share all the beautiful stuff about Gabrielle. Now, Gabrielle, if you're watching this, I hope you're okay with me saying all of this fantastic stuff, but it was such a beautiful celebration, you know, friends, family, sharing all the things we love about Gabrielle, all of her achievements, Gabrielle sharing her reflections, her dreams, talking to family and friends. It started at two, uh, I think, uh, people got to bed very late that night. So, you know, and what a lovely thing it must be to partake in, in something where you can still hear and be involved in all the storytelling. Yes. Whereas, you know, the amount of times that we hear people talk about attending a funeral of a, a friend or a loved one and go, oh, I never knew that. They did that or I, I didn't know that about them. Or the opposite thing that we find is that the funeral doesn't actually reflect who they are. Mm. Yeah. Or anything of who they are in their essence, you know? Yes. I just think it's amazing that if you do have the option, uh, and you're comfortable to do so, that it must help with the healing process or at least the grieving process of the loved ones around. Mm. To, to have that, those memories. Yes. Well, I must admit, this is the first time that I have experienced walking alongside and being with a friend with a terminal illness, and Gabby is a deeply spiritual woman, and she has experienced in being a death doula and she has worked in palliative care. And I think all of those things tied in together, she knows the importance of. Demystifying the process and bringing people along with her as a friend. You know, I've shared it with other friends, just what a privilege it's been and just to, yeah, how Gabby has gathered us up and she's helping us in this process and, you know, it's not all fairy floss and great times. It's certainly, you know, the highs and the lows, and she's very real about. What's, you know, happening. But equally, she's also traveling to Rwanda, traveling to Turkey and doing things and you know, so bringing us along on that journey, talking about death. And I wrote an article about Gabby, which has been published, and again, just capturing this essence of Gabby in light of these circumstances and the recent trip to Rwanda, it was a privilege to be there with her witness, her returning to Rwanda, I've never sung so much. We danced the Rwandan community, and I think that was one of your questions, what have I learned? So I would never have thought I'd be going to Rwanda. That's not one of the places that I had thought. But again, the opportunity arose and I can admit I arrived. Worried and scared and probably closed. And you know that I'd done a lot of research about the genocide in the lead up to, I'd spoken to people from World Vision who had worked in the area. I was just trying to be as prepared as I could, and in some ways that probably had me going like this. Well, if there's one thing I can say, it is that Rwanda and its beautiful, resilient, warm, open-hearted people broke me open. Yeah. For the joy and the grief. I, I could not get over the singing and the dancing, the amount. Uh, and I, I recall you telling me the story about that as it was getting closer to you leaving and coming home. The children of the local village would come earlier and earlier each day to spend more time with you because they knew that their time with you was coming to a, to an end at that point. Yes. And, but they would come in and they would, they would sing and dance with you every afternoon, wouldn't they? Yes. So these are the children of the families that Chantel is taking care of as part of the Ishobe community. And yes, every, well, it started once a week in the afternoons that they come for singing. Uh, Chantel is an artist herself and she's very strong in teaching children song Rwandan song and dance and poetry, you know, the culture, keeping the culture alive. And so I think on our first day there, the children came. So the children of the local village families, so they're, we call them the Ishobe children. They're not just random children. They came and yeah, you know, singing songs and dancing. But what eventuated was just. Just beautiful play and friendship and more play and singing and hugs and play more singing and miming. And I think it just, what that taught me, and as I said, it did break me open because from this wound up afraid, worried what's gonna happen in Rwanda? I was just. Welcomed with open arms in the marketplace. I had my, I had randan phrases, a sheet that I took with me everywhere and I would always pull it out and start speaking in Kenya. Rwandan badly, but it didn't matter. The people would laugh, they would be open my shoulder, it broke the ice. And then by the end there's hugs. We are laughing, we are taking photos. And so yes, by the end, uh, really the highlight was the time spent with the children. Yeah, because look, everyone is still impacted by the genocide. It did take place 30 years ago. The country has moved on in many ways in terms of healing and reconciliation. Now there's no who to tootsies. Everyone is randan. There is a big emphasis on safety and on peace and never again. But, you know, we have hearts and it's only 30 years ago, and. So many people were killed, massacred on, you know, mostly tootsies, but also Hutu's. Tell me, what did you, is there public memorials? Like how have they Yes. How have they acknowledged that? Very recent? Yes. Genocide in the capital city of Kigali, there is the Genocide Memorial, which is a very big center dedicated to the genocide victims. So it has the whole history of really how it, it didn't just happen on the 6th of April, 1994. There is a whole history which has led to systematic infrastructure or systems that have taken place, which led to this, which eventually happened on the sixth, and then the genocide. So there's the big memorial in Kigali, but then in the specific. Genocide sites. So unfortunately a lot of churches, people went there for safety and they were barred in and torched. And so there are memorials. In fact, I believe there is a memorial in every district of Rwanda. And the month of April, the whole month of April in Rwanda is a time of remembrance. So it's a time when there are events where people come to remember, people come to give testimony because you know, if you think about it, for many probably they haven't even been able to talk about it until most recent times, like the trauma, you know? So there are still a lot of healing and reconciliation work taking place that has taken place. I heard the most phenomenal stories of forgiveness. There, which that's been one of the biggest impacts for me when I think of the level of forgiveness that people have had to come to and they have, I have nothing to complain about. So I, I've talking about examples of like women whose sons or husbands children were killed by the neighbor and they now visit that man in prison and have adopted him as their son out of forgiveness and because they don't want the violence and that cycle to continue. I mean, I heard that story often that women now go to the prisons where the men who killed. Obliterated. Sometimes entire families, they now visit or have adopted them as their sons or family. So that, that stays with me. Yeah. So the level of resilience, the reconciliation, there's the month of April. Yeah. In Rwanda is all about remembering, sharing stories. So it still goes on. I I, yeah. Still it's on 31 years today. That's not long. No, it's, it's really not. Uh, it, it's what, one generation really. Yes. Yes. So there's many that lost their parents or all aunts and uncles or. Yeah, all their children. So yes, there are many. There are women who gather, they're all the widows. We were in one place where we just happened to be at the hotel where the annual gathering of the widows joined at a diocese, a Catholic diocese in one of the Rwandan areas. And so they gather every year to just be together, to talk and to give solidarity and love. But yeah, so, and I know that there are programs still taking place around reconciliation and healing. That was a very big piece of work that that World Vision did. And there were programs set up and so I met some of those key people. I suppose the difficulties when you're there for, I think I was there for three or four weeks and constantly, you know, taking photos and gathering stories. I came back with a big body of, I. Information and I've gotta admit it takes time to process it. I sort of came back and, you know, yeah. It takes time. Yeah. And I can, I can see that, just even thinking about it, you know, it is a, a big weight to bear witness to even, because it is recent memory, like I was at high school when it happened in my final year or second final year, and. One of my, my family went over there as a peacekeeper, as part of the un Towanda. Uh, I knew someone who used to volunteer at the gardens that was part of that, that reconciliation process. So there are people, you know, within our own circles that have been touched by this and had some experience with it. Yes. So I'm not surprised. And on the scale that we have seen that happen in, in Rwanda was just horrific. But what is it that you think has been unique and stands out for you in that reconciliation or how they've been able to move forward and, you know, how do you see that with what Chantel's doing in her, her way of ensuring the culture lives on so we don't. It doesn't repeat and it is a different way moving forward. Mm. I'm not sure really how to answer that 'cause I feel a little bit like an outsider and I, I, I suppose I can speak from my experience of what I've seen with Chantel and we are still in contact with Chantel. She happens to be in Australia at the moment visiting. I think the, the government certainly there is a big emphasis on peace. There is a big emphasis on unity, as I mentioned now, they used to have identity cards that said you were Hutu or Tootsie or the other ethnic group. That's all gone. You, you're not even allowed to say you are one or the other. It's, we are all Rwandans. Now that aside, you know, obviously there's still humans and people still know who's who to explain, people who don't understand that there, there was tribal sort of like a tri, I suppose the best way to describe it would be tribal. Well, if there, they're different ethnic groups. Ethnic, yeah, different ethnic groups. So they're the different peoples who have come to live in Rwanda, the Hutu people of Tootsies, and then a smaller minority, um, the people. And as I said, you know, there's actually quite a long history and it includes colonization, it includes power. Who's in government, who's not, who's owning the land, who's not so. It's, it's not just what happened in those 100 days from the 6th of April. It's really important to understand there's a whole history. There was already war taking place and you know, the United Nations had already been in Rwanda. Yeah. There's, there's so much history. So when I think as a visitor to Rwanda 30 years on, it is remarkable. And Gabby would say the same 'cause she was there at the progress, you know, all the roads, the infrastructure.'cause if you think 30 years ago it was decimated. Decimated. So in terms of the infrastructure, the roads, the buildings, the city, that's one part of it. But then in terms of the people, yeah, I suppose so sharing what I witnessed in Chantel and what Chantel has witnessed, yeah, there is, uh, that determination, never again. Never again, you know, that we want to maintain our culture through dance, through song poetry, you know, the craft that comes from Rwanda and really celebrate that, which is good in our country. But you know, it, it comes with this history. But I do think they are forging away ahead. But you know, it's very easy for me to make blanket statements. I was there for three or four weeks. It's really what I'm learning and continue to learn. Healing and reconciliation programs are still taking place because there were many people who did not take those opportunities in the past 30 years, there is trauma in the body and in the spirit that is still needing to be worked through. You know, it's ongoing, but would I go again? Yes. Do I think Rwanda is a safe play? Yes. Do I think the people are warm and friendly and open and loving? Yes. Do I think they want peace? Yes. You know that they want the best for their country and their children. There is still a lot of poverty. There's still systemic issues that the government need to work on, but the fact that they really are focusing on that safety and security and peace and unity, that, you know, Rwanda, I, I think either Rwanda people would say that is who we want to be. That is the people and, yeah. I mean, you know, as I said, I can't speak on their behalf. I was a visitor. It's just my observations and my own reflections. But yeah, I, I now feel like, see, Chantel is here visiting again, and we've had fundraisers. Gabrielle has hosted fundraisers and friends of mine have now met Chantel. They've come and stayed here in sea and they've met the swimming community. So it was lovely for people here again, locally in Melbourne, who heard the story of Chantel and Gabrielle. Maybe through the article or through the fundraising events, Chantel is able to come and then they meet her. And now just most recently, one of our friends had a small event and she chose for the proceeds of that event to go toward Rebe. So. Small but meaningful impact beyond now Rwanda through these connections. I mean, it's amazing. So Rwanda is ingrained in my heart, the children for sure. The experience that deep invitation to, to forgive. You know, when things in my own life, when I have seen what others have needed to forgive and that deep resilience Yeah. That they all, that all stays with me. Yeah. I hope it's made me a better person or have a better appreciation for life. Mm-hmm. It, it was interesting 'cause that was going to be my next question was, was what, you know, you, you've been the storyteller and you've witnessed so many different stories. You know, what are the top things that you take away with you each day from the storytelling that you've, you've heard? I think the main things that I take away or that I've come to know deep within my heart and soul. Yeah, just that there is more that connects us, you know, our humanity. Kindness matters. Listening matters. Spending time in people's presence matters. Having conversations matter. I think I said listening, but I'll say it again. Listening. Eye contact. Are you okay? How are you? I'm interested in what you've got to say. As long as we have hearts and spirit and we're with people, you know, we are social beings, but I just think at the heart of it, you know, is love, love. We have love to give and we all need to be loved, but it's that connection. So yeah, I think I've really learned that. If we take time to listen and hear someone's story, we will gain a deeper understanding and probably be kinder and more compassionate, less judgmental. And it is sacred. It's all sacred. That whole encounter. I love Pope Francis used to use the word so often. It's that encounter, you know, the, that encounter with the other, whether it's with God, you know, the universe that which we can't see, those that have passed with, whether it's with our loved ones, even with ourselves. That encounter of just, I am here, I matter, and you matter, and your story matters. And listening. I'll just say it again. Yeah. Wow. Fiona, I couldn't think of a better way to actually finish our little chat today. That is really beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing everything, uh, that you, you have today. I really enjoyed our chat. Thank you. It's been a joy to be with you even, and I apologize for the tears. Oh God. No, don't. Don't ever apologize for tears. You are in good company. Yeah, no, thank you. It's been really a lovely privilege. Thanks. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, brought to you by Critical Info. If you liked the episode, learn something new, or were touched by a story you heard, we'd love for you to let us know. 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