Don't Be Caught Dead
Welcome to Don’t Be Caught Dead - a podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I’m your host, Catherine Ashton - Founder of Critical Info - and I’m helping to bring your stories of death back to life.
Because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared.
Don't Be Caught Dead
Grief Without Permission: ROSIE BATTY on Challenging SILENCE and Speaking TRUTH
We'd love to hear from you. Send us a text :-)
What happens when the unimaginable becomes your reality? In this episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I chat with Rosie Batty, a woman who turned her profound grief into a powerful movement for change after the tragic murder of her son, Luke. Join us as we explore the depths of loss, the importance of community, and the strength it takes to find hope in the darkest of times.
In this powerful episode, I sit down with the incredible Rosie Batty, a fierce advocate for family violence prevention and a beacon of resilience following the tragic murder of her son, Luke. Rosie’s journey through grief, PTSD, and healing is nothing short of inspiring. She shares her candid reflections on the societal perceptions of grief and the importance of having open conversations about death and loss. This episode is a heartfelt reminder that while we may not be ready to face death, we can certainly prepare ourselves to navigate the complexities of grief and healing.
Rosie’s story is one of profound loss, but it’s also a testament to the strength of the human spirit. After losing her son, she found herself thrust into the public eye, sparking a national conversation about domestic violence. Through her memoir, Hope, Rosie reflects on her journey, the challenges she faced, and the lessons learned along the way. She discusses the importance of community support, the complexities of friendships during grief, and the need for honest conversations about our feelings surrounding death. Rosie’s insights remind us that while grief can feel isolating, we are not alone in our experiences.
Join us as we explore the nuances of grief, the power of storytelling, and the importance of being present in our lives. Rosie’s journey is a powerful reminder that even in the darkest times, there is hope and light to be found.
Key points from our discussion:
- The importance of open conversations about death and grief.
- How community support can play a crucial role in healing.
- The complexities of friendships during times of loss.
- The power of storytelling in processing grief.
- Recognising that grief is a personal journey with no set timeline.
Read more about Rosie:
Are your affairs in order? Critical Info helps you organise essential documents in just 10 minutes a day. Sign up now for early access! → criticalinfo.com.au/critical-info-platform
Lost a loved one? Our guide walks you through the next steps, from the first hours to the months ahead. Download it here → criticalinfo.com.au/product/my-
Contact Catherine
Business Website: https://dontbecaughtdead.com.au
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100094865491683
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/critical_info_org/
LinkedIn Business Page: : https://www.linkedin.com/company/critical-info
LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherine-ashton-73254528/
Podcast Editor: https://www.livvimusic.com/
Music composer: Ania Reynolds - https://www.aniareynolds.com/
Life is too hard. Life is too painful. I will never be free of this. I will always feel like this. And I remember looking at the year ahead and thinking, I don't want to keep going. It is too hard. No matter what I do, no matter how busy I am, no matter how much energy I've put into everything I do to create change, I can never bring him back. I can never reverse this. Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead. A podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Katherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared. Don't be caught dead. Acknowledges the lands of the KO nations and recognizes their connection to land, sea, and community. We pay our respects to their elders past, present, and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. Today I'm speaking with Rosie Batty. Rosie is a tireless advocate for family violence prevention and a symbol of resilience in the face of unimaginable loss. After her 11-year-old son, Luke was murdered by his father. In 2014, Rosie Courageously spoke out, sparking a national conversation on domestic violence. As the 2015 Australian of the Year, she dedicated herself to systematic change, influencing policy and public awareness in her memoir. Hope Rosie shares her journey through grief PTSD and healing, offering insight into finding light after profound darkness. Thank you for being with me today, Rosie. Hi Catherine. Now I have had the opportunity to hear you speak twice. The first time I heard you speak was at the Sorento Writers Festival when you had just released Hope. That's right. And that was in that April last year. And then I also had the privilege of hearing you speak again towards the end of last year at my local library in Frankston. And it was then that I reminded you of the biscuits that I had given you with the crazy Don't be caught dead symbols all over them. And you were kind enough to accept my invitation on coming on the podcast. It was special moment. Certainly those, you know, the events that have been created around my book and the opportunity to have meaningful conversations in places like libraries and book festivals and other community spaces. You know, it has really been a very special time where I've really understood that people are still interested in what I have to say and are motivated into coming and hear me speak. And I think, you know, Frankston was, you know, late afternoon. On a Saturday, a little prior to Christmas. And I think if people are taking the time out of their weekend to come and hear me speak, and there were a lot of people there and it was numbers that they hadn't, you know, they haven't had before. How honored and you know I am and how special that is, is something I reflect on a lot. And what has that experience of, especially in that last year since releasing Hope, what has those experiences of being in community and those settings taught you about, I suppose that difference between when the first book came out, which was a mother's story in 2016, everything you've experienced since then, and then how community has responded in sort of the last 12 months. Um, I think it's now 11 years since Luke was murdered. His anniversary is for coming up very quickly and initially I think people were. Astounded that somebody who'd experienced a profound tragedy like the murder of your own son and only son, how could you function? How could you stand up? How could you move forward? Because we imagine that we would never be able to find happiness again. We imagine we would never cope. I think we have an impression that people would be bedridden or housebound or incapacitated with their grief. So I think initially the fact that I was able to speak out in a very authentic and genuine way cut through, and it had an impact on so many people and family violence and the conversation we were having about it changed from that point. I. Now, that wasn't something I had planned. It wasn't something I knew really what I was doing. It wasn't something that I'd rehearsed for. So I was thrust willingly, it would say, into the public spotlight, and perhaps intuitively and without real, having any idea of how long I would remain in the public spotlight. I grabbed those opportunities because I didn't want Luke to have died in vain. And so many people who experience profound tragedy, no matter what it is, have that absolute, you know, calling to make change in one way the way they can, because that gives them purpose and meaning in ways that they hadn't anticipated or had planned for. It does give you a reason to keep going. And I think those decisions I made helped me move forward. But 10 years later when my book Hope was released, I think people were curious. Again, they hadn't seen me in the media spotlight as much. They were curious as to how was I going on my journey? What was I doing? Or what am I doing now? How am I, am I doing okay? How has it affected me today? And to look back on that journey now that I am, through the intensity of so many mental health challenges, I can be reflective and balanced about that journey and I can look back with some regret. Some things I would've changed if I could do them again, but an awful lot I did at that time. Because it felt right and it was right. And I think that certainty that family violence is a societal scourge that has no place in our community and in any family. That determination to make significant change to the best way I could personally do has helped me enormously. Even though the statistics are still overwhelming, devastating, and it's easy to think, well, has that been a waste? Has that been a futile exercise? All of the energy and everything I did, has it achieved anything? And those are the questions you ask yourself. Because on the news most days there will be an incident of family violence and there'll be a brutal and horrendous tragedy where a woman predominantly has been taken. And left family members and children devastated and having to face the same journey that I'm living through. And so it is really important to be able to recognize some changes that give you and continue to inspire you and give you hope. And that's what those community events and public speaking engagements in that varying capacities do.'cause I'll always have people come to me and share intimately what a difference it has made. And now that could be a victim, survivor and someone who's felt validated and inspired to make courageous change. It can be someone who's experiencing childhood loss and sadness and grief that needed to hear my words and I don't know. What they take away. All I do know is in those conversations I have as I'm reflective and you know, discovering more about myself each time, you know, I have an opportunity to talk in this way. There is always that this sharing and this real conversations we don't always have or have the opportunity to have. Sometimes it's too close and the people around us aren't comfortable, or we are more open with people we don't know or the environment or the opportunity. We're just too busy and we don't make that time. So when we really engage in conversations that we have sparked our interest, but a topic that we may be very immersed in at that point, or a part of our life journey, that is really where we're really stuck. I know personally, being able to articulate and talk. To another human being and to other human beings helps me process and progress, and that is my way. But other people don't have the words. It isn't their way. But I think we can all benefit on so many levels from hearing those stories, which is why I see the value of whether it's podcasts or audio books or speaking engagements and things that we can turn up to either physically or remotely. But through other people's storytelling and shared experiences, we realize we're not alone. That so many of our feelings are hidden, suppressed, because we don't, we realize people don't want to always be burdened. By the reality of the sadness we may hold, or the doubts that we have or the varying conflicts that we manage. So, you know, that's where I feel very fortunate that through the most unfortunate circumstances, I'm invited and encouraged to do what I have always enjoyed doing. In the past, it would've been having a decent conversation and a meaningful conversation at a barbecue with a glass of wine in hand. But I much prefer that to a loud to party. Well, I'm a bit older now, a loud party, big music, can't speak, can't hear anybody, and it's just, you know, I've never enjoyed those social engagements and those, you know, so for me it's about genuinely meeting people. I. Sparking conversations of death and reality. And we need, I think, to be able to tune into those or to recognize the importance of them as part of our journey through life. You know, I viewed life as a learning journey and I know that I will continue to learn until the very end. And so for me, I guess I learn a lot through other people and what I hear and see through their actions, through their words, through their behaviors even. And I guess that's what makes us social creatures. That's interesting that the way in which you view yourself is perhaps, and this is something that you talk quite openly in hope, and it certainly shows your self doubt and your vulnerability, but also just your authenticity as a person, that there isn't anything to hide. You're very honest in this book. But that started off as a difficult process, didn't it? That when you started that book writing process with Sue? Yeah, well actually, I dunno about being honest isn't a difficult process for me. I think I learned as a child, I dunno whether I learned it or I've always been open and honest getting in trouble at school. I told the truth. It's one of my biggest values, being accountable, telling the truth. And sometimes I can say that that could be blunt honesty, which isn't always well received. And I've understood that sometimes that has to be more measured or sometimes that has to be more timely. So I look at perhaps inspiration and the modeling I've had from my family. Who are genuine, down to earth, honest people. And so I have always aspired to be like them, I think. And I think with my book, what was challenging is that I didn't really want to revisit the painful time of Luke's murder, but what I really did want is the book to reflect honestly the challenges I faced and some of the regrets I had or the self lo being I experienced and the less than perfect person that I am because I felt an imposter on many levels. People had put me on this platform that I felt was unrealistic. And when we elevate people like that so frequently, there is only one way to go. And that is we also pull them down. And I, you know, that's something I really never want to have experience. So you protect yourself, I guess, as best you can from, you know, through harm. And you know, you experience a lot of trolling and everyone has an opinion of you and not everybody sees the way that you grieve or that you are seeking the media spotlight in the way that I genuinely go about it, which is to amplify the voices of family violence victims to use my influence to create change where I can. It has never been about ego and being put famous and being seen on tv. It's a means to an end. And every single time I stood up in front of the media or on television in the newspapers, I was on a mission and I still am. And actually I still find it a little uncomfortable, but I project myself. In this way.'cause I always have, and people think, oh, she's so confident and bubbly and personable and warm and friendly and I am, but I'm also sensitive and always thinking, have I got that right? Was I good enough? Was that okay? It in that very moment, I'm expecting at some point to fail and that that conflict is tiring, but it's, I don't know that I'm ever not gonna be same person without it because it's always been with me. And I guess that is also what keeps me genuine because I push through those self-doubts. You know, I came from a little village in England and I had to push myself to get on a plane to Australia traveling on my own. And I've had to push myself every step of the way to go further than I ever thought possible. You know, the limitations of career for me was being a secretary. You know, I didn't aspire and see anything further than that. And so, you know, there's been heightened anxiety and huge self-doubt at different times where I've surpassed, you know, even expectations of the small community I came from in England, and certainly my family who don't truly understand the work I do and what I do. And because they're in England, they have no idea of that. I'm a recognized family name by so many people. Mm. You know what I have found when I lost my mom and I was only six, my father was a man of his generation. He didn't know how to say he loved you, he didn't hug you, but it was always there in his own way. And I think that little girl has always been seeking that demonstration of love and, and reassurance. And so I guess that's the thing that I can take from this experience since losing Luke, is what an amazing response people have towards me. And I hope I can continue to honor that. Never take it for granted, never assume it, but continue to embrace it because it holds me, you know, and never to become egotistical about it. So I, I am humorous. I like to have a good joke. I can be a little bit too down to earth, so it depends on my company as to whether my use of language has to lift and shift. So, yeah, it's really lovely that people want me to be me and Rosie. It's interesting that. You know, in hindsight, it gives us 2020 vision to look at where we are. Mm-hmm. Now and what has led us to be who we are today. From my understanding, from what I've read, it appears that you were propelled, you had this purpose when Luke died and you were, I almost feel like you are sort of like in this whirlwind, it sort of reminds me of Dorothy and the tornado of the Wizard of Oz, that you're spinning and you're off, and you're off on this path, that you really don't know where you're going to land. Mm-hmm. And at what point in time did your feet touch the ground and go, whoa. Well, I don't think they touched the ground and went, whoa. In that kind of way, I think hit a wall. I mean, ultimately I can now look back and see that I was avoiding further pain of grief. I was experiencing as much pain as I could. Deal with. And in that pain behind the scenes, I was drinking perhaps a bottle of red wine every night. I had taken up chain smoking again. You know, some of those health issues I sit with now because of smoking. But it's very common for trauma affected people to self-soothe through addiction. And that's something that I guess for the first three years or so, I would think, you know, was a huge part of my coping strategy and unhealthy one at that. But sometimes you do what you can to survive. I think being constantly busy with somewhere every other day, literally every other day I was traveling somewhere, helped me avoid sitting alone without Luke in my home. And I. It gave me a reason and a purpose to keep going. And I went to Borneo, I think it was three years later. And when I came back, I, I was there for four weeks volunteering at an orangutan sanctuary to avoid Christmas actually, but wasn't successful because I found they celebrated Christmas there and everyone was trying to make something of it. I was like, oh God. So what did it do? The one thing they tried to get rid of rubbing salt in the wound and making it worse 'cause it was completely isolated. And, um, anyway, when I got back, it was at the early, started the year and again, the anniversary of Luke's death is, you know, does affect you even if you're not totally aware of it, sitting there at that anniversary point, and I remember I. Just looking at the year ahead thinking, I just don't wanna keep doing this. Life is too hard. Life is too painful. I will never be free of this. I will always feel like this. And I remember looking at the year ahead and thinking, I don't wanna keep going. Mm. It is too hard. No matter what I do, no matter how busy I am, no matter how much energy I've put into everything I do to create change, I can never bring it back. I can never reverse this. And I was in Sydney at one point, sooner around that time, and I was traveling from one appointment to the next in this, you know, busyness. And I pushed open in a taxi door and I. A bus came past and took it off its hinges. And I remember sitting there wondering whether I was relieved I was still alive or disappointed I was still alive. Yeah, wow. And I think that really helped me understand very deeply. I didn't seek to end my life through tablets and doing something irreversible, but I wanted to die and I would've welcomed something happening to me. I was almost welcoming getting cancer or something. And you know, I now can see that was around three years. And perhaps people of that misconception that by then you're getting on with life. By then you're over the worst of the grief. And I think there's many misconceptions, but one of them is how it has changed your life forever. And how you have to find a way to not just recover from the grief, or part of that is to rebuild your life and what that looks like. And that's a journey that's individual and it's uniquely your own. And what works for me doesn't work for someone else. So what gives me purpose and meaning isn't the same for someone else. And not all of us have got that strength. And unfortunately, people do fall by the wayside. And I feel incredibly sad and sorry for older people who we never really appreciate the grief and loss that they feel no matter what stage of life they're at, through losing their lifelong partner or their siblings and all the people they've ever known of, their era and their time, and the people they've outlived. And we expect people to just get old, get frail. And then be grateful for whatever life they're able to scratch around and find. And so, you know, I'm aware that I'm so fortunate. I'm able bodied, I'm healthy, I'm youthful enough, I have enough opportunity that I can reach out for support if I need it. I have at certain times, gone to a counselor and my doctor and people that know my journey and know me and have needed to help me at particular points. I also have friends, and I think this is where friends are really important, is some people can't handle the intensity of your grief. They don't expect you to have angry outbursts and unreasonable responses. Now I can say that could be grief, that could be trauma, it could be anxiety. But all I know is that some of those disproportionate responses. Left me feeling with great self-loathing, regret, remorse, and some of those people have chosen to resist my apologies and not being able to find forgiveness or acceptance. And I think what has helped me come back to being who I am now are those people who saw me at my utmost vulnerable, my utmost broken, behaving in ways that I have still shame about. They held the space for me. They knew that was my pain. And that lifetime friendship or the relationship that we have could be family members. Even some of my close working colleagues over those years, the fact that they are still with me. The fact that they are still my friends and colleagues and have helped me find myself again and shake off a lot of that regret, remorse and self-loathing. And you know, that's where I think that people don't realize the pain. It is more than physical pain. It is a pain that takes up every part of your body. And so I now understand why people lose hope and feel that their only step is to end their life. I fully understand it, but I also know now, and I've always known I will get through this. It will get easier. I will find moments of happiness again, moments of peace, satisfaction. And I can say now I also have moments of contentment. My personality, I don't think, allows me a constant state. Filling those things. I dunno whether there is any human that does. No, I don't think there is. Part of what I do is recognize and say, Rosie, right now, this is contentment. This is actually contentment because I'm always somebody that is restlessly looking and so I, it's a work in progress, but to be present, to be mindful. To not let your worries ruminate, to be not too immersed in the worrying about the future and regret in the past. So I do feel that I'm very aware of the importance and continued work that I need to continue to do. And so, you know, yeah. I think, I can't remember your question now, Catherine, but we've got off. No, no, no, no. That's, it's interesting that when you were talking, it made me very much think of what you were saying, how we perceive that as you age. And my grandfather was in his nineties when he died, and I was in my early teens, and I recall him saying to me, oh, all my friends are dead. Yeah. And I just, it's something that I think about quite a bit. Well, you know, because I think you. It's one thing that we think that is the thing as a society that as you age, it's a circle of life, you know? Yeah. And, and we kind of put that down to, you know, it's a circle of life and things like that. But you see, I guess that's the thing. I had a grandmother that lived till she was a hundred, now she died 22 years ago. There weren't many people living to a hundred back then. Yeah. And she was an inspiring woman. She was funny, she had a great sense of humor. She was kind, she was motherly. Everybody loved my nana, everybody. Um, and she was a great inspiration. But she, yes, she outlived everybody. Including, you know, one of my cousins who died tragically of a brain tumor, she died. She outlived my mother, who died tragically and prematurely at the age of 37 and left three children under the age of six. But she didn't dwell and she, you know, she was a delight for people to visit. She was. Still in her own home. So she had a really lovely older and older age that I, I'm not sure I will have with my life choices and you know, like of family members and things like that. But it still inspires me and has shown me how perhaps to look at continuing living life throughout the course of your life. But my father, again, he's recently just died, but still very recent for me. He was 92. And do you know what? He had a packed church because he'd lived in that area all his life, but he'd outlived nearly all of his friends of that generation. One of my uncles is still alive and you know, so there's one or two, but one of the last living friends is. Of exactly the same age and they grew up in the village together. This small little village went to school with each other, all of those things. And David is still alive, but he's, you know, he's certainly a very elderly gentleman. And I just feel, my dad always had the attitude. He was still driving, he was still living life up until the day he didn't, yeah, he still wanted to do what he could do, visit people, all the things, you know, he didn't give up, he didn't accept. So those are the things I think have, I feel very fortunate that stoicism strength, some really great qualities that I think I draw from. And it's because of the family and the community that surrounded me and those, you know, so my link to the UK is still so strong and conflicted 'cause I choose to live on the opposite side of the world. Mm. And so, you know, there is always that conflict, but I think on the flip side of that, modeling of stoicism and strength was a lack of emotional support. So the emotional support I have needed as a little girl wasn't available to me. And it wasn't a fault of my parents. It was through tragedy. My mom dying. And it was through an era where children were seen, not heard, their emotional needs were not met. People coped by compartmentalization. It's through more recent. That we understand counseling is a benefit, that being able to share vulnerability, but we still have to be cautious. We still worry about people's perception and stigma of mental health. We still don't openly talk about grief or death or death. And I think many people that have to make significant change in their life moving forward because of death of someone close, no matter who that may be, you know, not everybody goes the distance with you. And that for me was something that I struggled with enormously for at least the first two years I noticed everybody that was no longer part of my life. And I think people exit out of your life for varying reasons, but it's like abandonment. It was a huge abandonment for me and yeah, really rub, you know, an abandonment through the loss of my mother has been something I'm incredibly sensitive around. And I noticed that. And I realize that's for me to recognize. I realize that my connection to some of those people who I considered friends at the time was Luke. And what I have understood as I reflect back over the last 10 and 11 years. Those lost connections are because I've lost Luke. Yeah. Circumstance. And I've had to make new connections. And so for me, there was a period of time where I was very focused on my loss. And now I recognize the wonderful new people who've come into my life, who I have relevance and connection with because we share the same passions and whatever they may look like. There's a lot of commonality and shared appreciation of, and I realized that is life. And there was a podium that friends can be a reason, a season and a lifetime. Yeah. And I've realized that yes, my situation was extreme. No one wanted to be me. No one would change places with me. But the journey of friendship and the complexities of family relations are all of, we're all navigating. And so I've realized that that was an inevitable pathway. You know, I had a lot in common with a lot of people through Luke, because we were moms. Yeah, yeah. And that changed. I was no longer able to enjoy the camaraderie of being a mom with a small child. It was painful. And for them there is perhaps guilt or awkwardness, but the end of the day people don't deliberately hurt you. But I think that removal and withdrawal, it's difficult. And Rosie, that's something that you certainly speak about in the book and you know, how do you think that you would've liked people during that time to perhaps respond to you or just let you know? Because it's not the only story that I've heard where people have had someone die under either public circumstances or private, but people don't know how to support someone when they're grieving. And what would've you found would've been helpful for someone to have? Said to you at that stage? Oh, I think there was a lot of people helping me with my grieving in the tragedy of it. I had people from the Salvation Army making sure I had toilet rolls, cooked meals, absolute, enormous, community kindness. I had people coming from everywhere. I had so many flowers. So many flowers for months that I couldn't fit them in the house. They were down the drive. They were around my garden. I had letters and cards and gifts sent to me from across Australia. Elderly men and women, young people that went on for months, absolutely hundreds of pieces of correspondence, not knowing where to send them to. Just Rosy Tire, cricket Club, any of those things. You know, my house was full of people coming together in their pain and shock and disbelief and school communities that we were connecting to. Everything that we were connected into were so much part of that. And it was an incredible experience that I think shows the best of humanity. But the journey is a long one. Mm. And unfortunately, it is something to do with yourself in recognizing the hole and the void that you are left with is too big for anyone to fill, but it's painful when you see. People moving on in their life and the anger that you can sometimes feel is your anger, but they're not doing anything wrong because they still feel very sad, very sorry. They still feel those things. But I realize that one of my neighbors, and she said, every night I look out at the moon and I think of, look, I will always remember him, Rosie, and I thought, you see Rosie, people might not tell you every day, but in their own way, at particular moments, no matter what they look like, they will always remember him. And so, you know, because you don't see them joining you for a fundraiser or knocking on your door every five minutes or you know, including you in things that you perhaps had hoped that you might get included in. And feeling left out, these are a lot of your own very real feelings. But I think it was for me to recognize that no one out of, for Luke's circle of friends, all those kids and their parents and the community and large will ever forget what happened to Luke and who Luke was. And even now there will be somebody at some point that will, I will bump into that will remind me that child was at school at the same time as Luke. And they, you know, so for quite a long time. I was really desperate to have evidence that Luke had not been forgotten, and it has taken some time to realize that my life and how I rebuild my life is a journey only I can take. And yes, I need to know that I'm loved. I need to know that I'm supported. I would hate to think that I had to do this alone, but I realized that those genuine lifetime friends that have always been there, and I've got several in the UK that I grew up with or went to school with, that I've continued to have strong friendships with. Even now, I've got a great family, even though they live in the uk, who I know no matter what I need in support, I. Will always be there for me. They may not understand my emotions at times, but I know unequivocally they will never see me in trouble without stepping in to help in whatever way they can. And I think friendships can be more tenuous and I think those who have the capacity and emotional intelligence can have that ability to recognize that your response to something is not directly personal to them. And you really appreciate that. That deepens and strengthens your friendship. And you want to be that friend for them. And what I don't like is when people shield me and think, don't let Rosie know because they think it might upset me. It really is one of the worst things you can do, you know? And I think that's largely being trauma affected as well. I need to know. Mm. I don't want people to be frightened of upsetting me. I don't want the truth. I want blunt honesty. Don't skirt around. And what I did need, coming back to your question, which is a very difficult thing for anyone to do, is actually let me know when I've hurt their feelings to actually say to me, Rosie, that has really hurt me. Or I don't know whether you realize how that is making people feel. And to be honest enough, because sometimes through your pain, you don't realize you're hurting other people. And it's not what you set out to do, but you feel like the pain that you have inside is visible to those on the outside. And I think as we are able to forgive, make allowances and not respond and react, but I think there is a time also where that may need to be acknowledged that there is something that actually needs to be recognized. And what I think is very difficult is for people to be honest and they remove themselves because either they see that as a personal attack on them, that they feel hurt by and. That the intensity of the grief is triggering their own stuff and is frightening to them, or it's intimidating to them, or it's overwhelming them. And quite frankly, some people don't need that in their lives. They may be going through a vulnerable time. They may have their own life pressures, they may be having their own relationship breakdowns, and they may need to put their own boundaries in place because right then and there and for a period of time, they can't be available to you. But I think the trouble is, Catherine, people aren't able to feel they can be honest. Mm. Because they feel like that is perhaps gonna be too hurtful. And so some of those people have come back into my life and I've been able to understand through my own reflections, and without talking too deeply to these people, that they were going through their own stuff. And they were, but their exit out of my life and the door that they shut was really hurtful at the time because I didn't know what I'd done wrong, but I sensed there was something. And so now that friendship, those friendships are in, but that degree of trust is no longer there. Mm. But it's found a friendship that is comfortable and kind and. Enough. So I think it's often we are either to actually be able to be really honest. It's not easy. And I think we all struggle with that, whether we don't want to be confronted, whether we fear the response of that person, whether it's you expect them to be angry or burst into tears and be devastatingly sad. And I feel like we are very closed to allowing people to be angry. And it's a very difficult 'cause. Some of us have been, you know, anger is a response that we kind of have perhaps comes from our childhood as well. You know, I think it also has a bit to do with that people don't really understand grief and what shape and form grief can come in and it can be ugly at times. I think that's a huge point. We don't, but I think it's all human emotion. You know, we are uncomfortable with sadness. We're uncomfortable with genuine loss because if it's a feeling of disappointment, sadness, you know, we are too readily misinterpreting that as something abnormal. And, you know, depression can be abnormal, you know, in, in its way of lingering. And we can be incredibly vulnerable to it. And there's lots of complexities around. Depression will not minimize, but it's also something that's telling us that we need to address in our lives. And I. I think those courageous steps about, well, courageous. It is courageous really to kind of go deep within and say, what is going on in my life that is making me, you know, anxious or sad or, you know, all of these things because the changes we need to perhaps look at are overwhelming or we're unsure, or we are just uncomfortable and we don't wanna go there. So for me, I do feel that we don't understand grief and I do feel that we want people to be coping rather than not. And also within a, an expected timeline, just an, there's an, there's a perceived timeline of how long that should go. Yeah. So I can still remember one of my dearest fans who I reacted angrily about something that happened several months later. It was in the first 12 months, it was nine months later and it was approaching Luke's coronial inquest. And I had recently had bunion surgery, so I was kind of incapacitated and was crutch bound and all of these things. Anyway, either way, there was something that happened and I was really angry. And there was another situation where I was really angry when I was on holiday with relatives. And again, it was a traumatic response to something. And each of those people that are related to me, either you know, genuine relationships or really like lifetime friends, each of them had said she should. Be over it by now or her behavior, which is the same thing really. Yeah. This kind of response and behavior should be over it by now. And you know, that was within the first 12 months of a child being murdered in front of you. You know, like what are you thinking? How could you possibly think that my emotional wellbeing was gonna be recovered by a particular time? And so, yeah. And I think the very energy that I draw from that helps me survive is the very energy that bursts out when not properly channeled or not, I dunno about properly, because I think it's the shame that I've sit with through being. Honestly emotional. So, you know, you, you suppress a lot, but I think we all do. There is a way to project yourself. So I think, you know, it's understandable in the moment of absolute tragedy that we are broken and distraught and deeply saddened and yeah, so I think it takes a lot of people having their own self-reflection, self-awareness, and self responsibility. And so a lot of us don't. I think I try to, it may be delayed at times where I reflect more later and then see how that may have impacted on somebody or how I could have responded better or differently and had a different outcome and a better, better, you know, experience. And I think that's what you try to do, and when I say it's a journey of learning, is you're seeking through wisdom and insight. To continually be a better human and I will never be the perfect human I wanna be. And I look at some of my friends whose qualities and personalities I admire so much. And they're different to me. And I think in the same way that they see me and they admire me in ways that I don't see in myself, you know? So I think friendship is tested, relationships are tested, family relationships and dynamics are tested. And yeah, talking about death, people will say, oh, they'll try, people will try. And even through the experience of my dad dying to soften it, to come up with some kind of more palatable language, or you just soften it and you go, well, actually sometimes it is as it is. And so how do you respond to somebody? And, and I remember somebody saying to me at the very time, years ago, I just dunno what to say. And I say, isn't that the perfect thing? Yeah. I dunno what to say. I just, I'm just so sorry. Or I'm just here for you. And so sometimes there are no words, sometimes there isn't anything to say, but the very fact that you've shown up, the very fact that you keep weathering the storm, and that's the thing for me is all the activity that happened at the time of Luke's murder, but he has a cricket match that's in honor of him each year in that the Victorian police have a team and so they do this match. You're in honor of Luke. And I've always feel conflicted because I see how, you know, how thoughtful that is. Of the police and the local cricket club wanting to do something in memory of Luke. Not just Luke, but for family violence. But I'm always anxious and nervous about whether anyone will turn up and sometimes the people that I had thought would just don't, and the people that I'm don't expect do. And so I see that as just a reflection of they still remember Luke in their own private way, and he'll always be happy. You know, there'll always be a sadness in their heart about what happened to him. And you won't be forgotten. So life keeps going on as you question your friendships and sometimes you just have to accept they've run that course. It's interesting what you were just saying there, Rosie, in relation to what you'd said at one stage about what people can say to you and just sort of saying, I dunno what to say. I recall you saying that, and I think it may have been at the So Writers Festival and. Said to other people since Not really. The best thing you can say is, I don't know what to say. Yeah, because it's bloody better than any cliche you can come up with or any really bad way of trying to soften the situation when unfortunately you can't. You know, you can't. And it's, and also if someone tears up or someone breaks down, it's okay. You know, people are frightened to death of upsetting you and that. You know that pity is wearing and it's reminds you all the time that something is wrong with you and your situation is pitiful and nobody wants to be you. And it's, you know, my journey has been quite a weird one to navigate on, many levels to be admired, and yet no one wants to be in your situation. But after such a period of time, I've navigated it and I'm okay with where I am and how it's turned out, but it's not always easy because I, you know, I fear people's judgment and I'm very conscious when I walk my dogs or I'm out locally, you know that I want to be someone that. Is projecting myself as I normally would. I'm mindful about not being rude to people. I don't want to be rude somebody in a supermarket because I'm impatient in being in the queue, whatever. Because I realize just how you can affect people. And you know, I can be that harsh person if I'm under pressure and I'm stressed, I can be very direct and I realize that's not who I like to be. And there are times where you need to be that. But I, I guess because I'm now in a more balanced state of being, you know, I can hold myself in check. If I'm irritated or impatient, and I try to ensure that I have strategies in place to be more that person than the person that comes out of a box. I don't want be seen as So isn't that life and who we are. We have our strong points and are good points, and we have the other side of ourselves no matter what that looks like, that are challenging. And we seen in others what we perhaps lack in ourselves or feel that we lack in ourselves. Whether that's extroversion or articulation or, you know, I just really admire people who are calm and composed and even keeled. Yeah. And yes. Oh gosh. I would give space to be that person. Yeah. And I, and also people would, you know. Fantastic writing skills. I mean, mine are good enough, but you know, that's not my strength. You've done so much self-analysis, Rosie. It's exhausting, isn't it? Just typing in my shoes. It's exhausting, but But you really have, yeah. Like, you know, and so much personal growth and understanding, and most people never get to actually be able to have or develop the hindsight that you've been able to develop through. Do you think the process of writing and storytelling has helped with that? Oh, I am sure it has, but also, you know, I'm in my sixties and how many people do we listen to who are older when they have so much life experience and stories to share and tell and experiences of life that we can learn from. Mm-hmm. How dismissive are we in our young arrogance? And I feel so fortunate that I am seen as somebody that's got wisdom to share and insight to be shared and experience to learn from because I, that's how I keep learning, you know, about myself from others. You know, I feel very fortunate that even though I'm a woman in my sixties, I still have a voice and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. And I wouldn't want it to Rosie you. You've, we've gotta keep that, you know, the ageism is alive and well. And I do think we do have a lot to learn from people who've seen a lot, experienced a lot, because how else do we really truly understand unless we've walked in those shoes, been on that journey? And as different as it is for each of us, not one of us goes through life without loss, without pain, without grief. I love the fact that you have your close circle of friends and it seems to be some of the self care that you did for yourself over the last few years has been going on walks with those wonderful friends of yours. Tell me what other self-care activities or what are the sort of things that you do for yourself with everything you've been through? Look, I think, again, everybody's different, but I grew up on a farm when I was a little girl and lost my mom, and I've always known being that little girl. I have wanted animals to nurture it in my life and. It started off when I was little, having lots of rabbits that kept reading quite outta control as rabbits do, as rabbits tend to do. Now I have many of those in my paddock and because they're actually in plagued proportions here in Australia, but certainly I don't need any as pets. But dogs have always been a real friend, companion family to me, so they get me up every day. Walking them every day gives me joy. My connections are now no longer as a mother of a child, but they're mother of dogs. As we have doggy conversations with the fellow dog walkers that you see around and about. I also have live on property and I have perhaps made sure that I have the animals my father would never let me have when I did live on the farm, and that is I have two donkeys. I have a goat. And recently my purchase was two young heifers. Oh, Dougal and Dexter. I have not had cows before, so that's a new experience for me. But I guess what you would say is I've always had a menagerie of animals and sometimes I wonder why, because there's lots of extra work and cost associated, but that's just part of my every day. But the, the thing that, you know, friends are really important to me. I love going to the theater. I love food, a nice wine and social interaction and engagement, but I also like my own space, so I do need. That balance. So I work as hard as I can because I am that single person to generate opportunities to go out and be social because if I don't, I could spend a lot of my own time on my own. And as much as I like that, I do feel that it can be a little detrimental. If you are feeling a little bit vulnerable or sensitive, you can easily slip into a lot of rum ruminating and all that self-talk that goes on. So I try to keep connected with people doing things I enjoy, make me laugh, make me cry, make me happy. But this is always so important, I think, to have something to look forward to. And I will be going to Malta in June to one of my old school friends. Daughter's wedding. Oh, wow. So I'll be going there to catch up with old school friends. Otherwise, I perhaps wouldn't visit Malta potentially. So I travel as I can, as I can afford to. And of more recent years, I've tried to do trips that are trekking holidays and, you know, that's been in the UK so I can visit family and friends at the same time. But I have, you know, I've been to Portugal, Japan, Scotland, you know, I've, I've done a lot of walking holidays, which are physically challenging. And I think that physical challenge in amazing, beautiful scenery has been a significant shift. My recovery journey, you know, it is, it was incredibly difficult to push through some really challenging scenery physically, and that physical challenge was enough, I think for you to kind of draw safely from MM, to give you the will to continue to keep moving and getting better. So I have always had an interest in walking and I went trekking in Nepal before I had Luke. But obviously having a small child, there's a lot of things you can no longer afford to do or have the time to do or the opportunity to do. So I continue to seek adventure if I can and what can that look like? I'm not as ambitious and as risk taken as I was with my younger years, I will say, but I still have an appetite to continue to explore and do other walking holidays into the future. And Rosie, when we are looking forward, what does the next say, 12 months. Three years, five years look like for you? You know, I've possibly always been that person that goes along not knowing. And I think what I has actually this morning before we spoke, I was just thinking that I'm started this year with greater anticipation. Than I did last year. Last year I experienced a lot of really positive things, but was really nervous about the year ahead, what income I was going to generate to pay my bills and financial security and superannuation contributions. So I, I've kind of looked at what do I need to put in place to have more financial security? And so I feel that I also did that last year. I mean, this year I think there's an anticipation now because just the start of the year, this point or kind of it was, it's kind of motoring along a bit, isn't it? I'm feeling there is more ahead of me that I would like to be open to explore and not let my self-doubt and own self-imposed limitations stop me or prevent me from. Working out what that looks like. And so I feel that is this year is stepping back into and doing, yeah, stepping back step. You know how I said earlier, you know, I, all my changes I pushed through because of self-doubt. Well, I think last year was me really consolidating and taking stock and safely extending myself. And I think I'm ready to perhaps look at, well, maybe there's more, but what that more looks like will be a little bit more of the same. But I think there is something that I can't quite see yet that I will be exploring. That doesn't give you a very straight answer, does it? No, but I love it. I love the fact that you recognize that there is. Opportunities, but you're looking at them with curiosity and you're willing to kind of Yeah. You know, and I think part of that was the reflection on a dream I had last night. I don't always remember my dreams, but there was something that I just have a little bit of a memory of, and that was, I was. Running and jumping. And I think it was part of walking, because sometimes you have to jump across a creek or kind of maneuver across stepping stones. But there was a lightness and a, it was jumping and there was running. And sometimes my dreams have been in the past where something slowed me down to the point where I, I'm in like unable to run. I'm so slow, you know, if I try to run, I just forgotten how to do it. So I think that's a reflection again, of feeling stuck of not being able to move because you, you know, all of those things we're talking about. So I think that was what my reflection was, is interpreting I'm light. I'm seeing that, you know, there is energy perhaps in me for what's ahead. So I think, you know, I'm no brainer. I'm no dream expert, but I'm gonna go with that. I think you should just run with that, Rosie, and I think that's a beautiful way to know that you know, there is only one Rosie Batty and you know, you. Certainly good enough for us, Rosie. That's for sure. You don't need to be anyone else. Just keep being yourself and I'm so happy to hear that you have energy that is coming from your dreams and curiosity for the future. So I can't wait to see what that involves. And so how I applied that burst of energy, Catherine, is I am cleaning with a vengeance right now. So that's just a little household secret. I've been cob webbing. I've been looking at nooks and crannies and corners and going, gosh. Yeah. So there's a new renewed energy behind my house cleaning right now. So that's how currently challenging it. Yeah, that's good to hear. You know. Well, I can't thank you enough for being with us today, Rosie. I really appreciate your time. Thank you, Catherine. I've really enjoyed it. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, brought to you by Critical Info. If you liked the episode, learn something new, or were touched by a story you heard, we'd love for you to let us know. Send us an email, even tell your friends, subscribe so you don't miss out on new episodes. If you can spare a few moments, please rate and review us as it helps other people to find the show. Are you dying to know more? Stay up to date with. Don't be caught dead by signing up to our newsletter and follow us on social media Head to Don't Be Caught dead.com for more information and loads of resources.