Embracing Grief: The Art of Memorialisation with Chloe Marcela Coelho

What if the objects we hold dear could help us navigate the complex journey of grief? In this episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I sit down with Chloe Marcela Coelho, a passionate death scholar and creative practitioner who dives deep into the intricate dimensions of death, grief, and design. 

Chloe's work is all about enhancing our understanding of death and the grieving process through innovative memorialisation strategies. We explore how personal objects, tactile experiences, and even technology can help us maintain connections with our loved ones after they’ve passed.

Chloe shares her journey into the world of thanatology, sparked by her own experiences with grief after losing her mother at a young age. We discuss the importance of memorialisation and how it can take many forms—from patchwork quilts made from a loved one’s clothing to the inclusion of ashes in jewellery and tattoos. Chloe highlights the significance of engaging all our senses in the grieving process and how these tangible connections can provide comfort and healing.

We also touch on the ethical considerations in the death care industry, the misconceptions surrounding grief, and the need for more open conversations about death. Chloe’s insights challenge the traditional narratives around grief and encourage us to embrace our memories and connections with those we've lost.

Key points from our discussion:

- Understanding the role of memorialization in the grieving process.
The importance of tactile and sensory experiences in remembering loved ones.

- Exploring innovative ways to memorialize through design and technology.
The ethical considerations in the death care industry and the need for open conversations about death.

- Challenging misconceptions about grief and embracing the journey of remembrance.

Find more about Chloe:

Chloe’s website https://www.chloemarcelacoelho.com

Instagram: @chloe.m.coelho https://www.instagram.com/chloe.m.coelho

Vestiges of Memory - Grief unpacking project on my website: https://www.chloemarcelacoelho.com/vestiges-of-memory


Join us for a heartfelt conversation that aims to demystify death and inspire you to think creatively about how to honour your loved ones.

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine

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Music composer: Ania Reynolds - https://www.aniareynolds.com/

Transcript

0:02

Too often people are rushed through this process from hospice to they've died and now we're going to a funeral home. It happens very, very quickly as opposed to home care where we used to take our time. It used to be over the course of a week or two weeks where we could stay with the body. And I think we're trying to regain that connection with the person who died. So it's all about connecting with their death now rather than their life sometimes. Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life. Because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared. Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges the lands of the Kulin nations and recognises their connection to land, sea, and air. We pay our respects to their Elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. Today I have with me Chloe Marcela Coelho. She runs a creative practice that explores the intricate dimensions of death, grief and design. Chloe is a death scholar. Her academic work focuses on deepening death literacy and developing innovative strategies to enhance public understanding of this universal human experience. Chloe is currently undertaking PhD research and her focus is on memorialization, examining the relationship between materiality and the construction of meaning within the grieving process. Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, Chloe. Thanks Catherine. I am very excited for the conversation today. So Chloe, we met very briefly in Sydney just before Christmas last year at the Death and Dying Festival that they were running up there. And then I also came across your name again just before Christmas, busy time of year for the death industry, where you were actually one of the facilitators as part of expiry dates that was at M Pavilion. Yes, that's correct. So, all the places we kind of end up finding each other, a little unusual, but It's pretty common, isn't it, within this industry that you generally find the same faces, which become very familiar. Now, tell me, Chloe, what is a death scholar? A death scholar is anyone looking into the field of death or thanatology. So, I'm approaching it from a creative practice point of view, rather than anthropologically or medically. And so what sort of things are you focusing on? You mentioned that it actually has a focus on memorialisation and its context in relation to grief. Can you talk me through just exactly what that means? So my particular creative practice is more concerned with the grieving that happens after death. So what can we do or create to encourage people to explore their own grief? Memorialization is a really massive industry and I think we could include more intentional design in it to be able to come up with really customized, really meaningful objects for people. And so what sort of things have you found that people have done when they are grieving to, you know, continue to have that connection with their loved ones? I've seen lots of lovely patchwork quilts made out of t shirts, lots of photography being just placed in the house, there's this beautiful altar, this commemoration of the person. There's a lot of different ways that I've seen people memorialize someone, and it mostly has something to do with the physical aspect of it. We want to touch it, we want to feel it, we want to smell it, we want to engage all our senses in remembering that person. And I get that every time I smell this perfume of someone that died. It takes me right back to them. So incorporating little bits like that into your everyday are really lovely reminders that they are still with you. Your connection is still ongoing. And is that a trend, or have you specifically sought out to find those more tactile ways of memorialising a loved one? I think it's more of a trend that we gravitate towards the tactile side of it. I mean, all throughout history with memento mori, we've had Victorian era memento mori photographs. Lots of hair weaving, which is coming back now because we are in a Western society here in Australia that's very focused on consumerism, less in touch with the physical. So we want to get right back to that. Oh, I don't know if that made sense. No, no, no, it totally made sense. Don't worry. It was just that I was thinking about when you were saying hair weaving. So do you want to explain that for someone who's not familiar? Absolutely. So there are jewelry designers currently that vitalized hair weaving, but it's this process of taking hair from a deceased person. So this requires some amount of forethought and planning. And they weave them into these beautiful plaits and patterns that get turned into lockets or into rings. Even rings under this beautiful clear stone, all sorts of ways to kind of bring hair into it, which I think is really lovely. That's really interesting. That's something that, you know, I was familiar with that classic, you know, the cutting the lock of the hair and popping it in the locket. So you have something with them that you can always carry. And so that's interesting that it's having, would you say it's having a resurgence now? Yes, absolutely. Hair weaving is coming back and putting ashes into rings. and other pendants as well. It's another way of using the body as material, respectfully. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's actually that very tactile of having someone close to you. And I've also heard, and you could certainly give more detail than what I'm aware of, but also the inclusion of ashes in tattoos. Have you come across that practice? Yes, ashes are really versatile. I've seen ashes on ceramics. I've seen ashes on tattoos. Ashes compressed into diamonds. I think that became pretty popular with the news story. Ashes in paint. So either thrown on paint or mixed in with the pigment. So there's lots of ways to kind of bond that powdery material. And I suppose because ash has been part of arts practice throughout the ages really, like if you think of First Nations people, when they're doing bark paintings, they actually use ash and the fire to, you know, change the bark and then actually use the ash in the painting process itself. So it's not a new thing that you're seeing, is it really? It's not a new thing, but I think it's new to contemporary cultures, particularly Western cultures who are very conservative. And so tell me, why is it making a resurgence? Like, because it did, you know, I think, and I'd love your thoughts on this, about, you know, when we removed death from a natural thing that happened within the home and it became more a thing that was happening in the hospital or an aged care setting. Did we lose that connection to death? And, well, that's one question. And I suppose my next question is, why are we trying to regain that connection through, you know, Memento Mori? Excellent questions. We absolutely lost our connection to death, not only in conservative, but because we don't see it every day. We don't see it in front of us like they used to have in the 1900s. It was very common for people to die. It was very common for children to die. And I think particularly with modern medicine, we tend to want to prolong life and there's less of a focus on that quality of life for the person. And so I think we're in this kind of limbo between medicine wanting us to live longer versus accepting death and just being pulled in these two different directions. And I think that makes it very difficult to have these conversations about death to talk about people's last wishes. So when we're in this sort of position that we find ourselves in that we're, you know, no longer having our loved ones die at home, it's being more extended through modern medicine and it's prolonging our lives. Why is it then? that we're actually then seeking opportunities where we can include our loved ones ashes in jewelry, in, you know, tattoos, those sorts of things. Why do you think that there's a resurgence? I think we're recognizing the limitations of our current industry, our deaf industry. So too often people are rushed through this process from hospice to they've died and now we're going to a funeral home. It happens very, very quickly, as opposed to home care where we used to take our time. It used to be over the course of a week or two weeks where we could stay with the body. And I think we're trying to regain that connection with the person who died. So it's all about connecting with their death now rather than their life sometimes. And is that why you're finding it coming in at that grieving process so when someone has died that this is becoming the real kind of thing that they're holding on to? Holding on to in a sense of trying to be close to them? How do you mean? Yeah, I think that is, well, you tell me, why are people doing it? What are they trying to fulfill or overcome or what is the motivation that you've been finding behind the reason why people are doing this? I think it comes back to maintaining that connection. I mean, currently we are still told that. It's about letting go, moving on, and that narrative has been challenged 20 years ago, but we're still seeing that pattern. And we're trying to resist that. I think, even subconsciously, we're trying to keep that connection going in whatever way we can. And ashes are a particularly viable way of doing that, because you don't see a body, you don't see decay. You just see the end result. So I think it's more palatable. Yeah, it's sort of a more hygienic way in which to do it, isn't it? Like, it's one thing because it's sort of, when you get the ashes, you know, it's gone through the crenulators. So it's actually, you know, far more, like you say, palatable. It doesn't resemble the human form any longer, does it? It doesn't. And I don't know whether that's necessarily a good thing. It does seem more hygienic in that we're broken down into our basic components. It's a carbon. But the decaying process can be made hygienic. There are ways in which we can manage it. You can touch a dead body. You can hug your deceased loved one, you know, in home care or at the funeral. And I think we're losing that connection as well. being brave enough to touch them, if it's not a common practice in your family. And I think that connection can be quite lovely. And it helps with the reality of the situation, with engaging in your senses with that body. So you're like, you're thinking, I'm touching this person's hand, I'm holding them. They feel really cold and recognizing that's a normal process. So I advocate for becoming more familiar with bodies. Being brave in that way, I think, can be very healing. And tell me, Chloe, how did you get started in this? You know, when you were at school and went, Okay, I want to be a deaf scholar. Like, how do you go through the process of wanting to be a deaf scholar? Was there a particular moment for you that you went, Yep, this is the path I want to go down? I didn't know I was going to do this until my final year of my undergrad degree. My mum died when I was 13, and so I sort of saw everything that went wrong, that could go wrong, really quickly. collided in this cold, empty process and experience. And it wasn't until I fully engaged with my grief in my undergrad project in which I was able to kind of move with that grief. Can you talk me through the undergrad project then? Because that sounds like it was the catalyst. It was. So it was a very Turbulent time for me, moving out, connections with family and friends weren't the best, they were going through changes, and I had realized I finally had that time and space to really sit with it and think about how bad the system was, how bad the experience had been. And so I I decided to work with that, work with what my mum had left behind for me. So I had this box of all of her belongings that just sat in the corner, sat in the cupboard. I think many people have this kind of box where all these physical belongings are, but they're too important to get rid of. There was this letter that she had wrote to me when I was a year old that I didn't read until I was in my late teens, and it talked about how much she loved me. Really sweet stuff in her handwriting. And so I decided to put that letter on a silk scarf so that I could feel it, touch it more, and engage with it. And then on that scarf I put this color changing ink so it turns transparent in the heat. It's a little bit hot today. Oh, wow. And so that, most of the time, the text is barely visible when you're wearing it, but as soon as you apply more heat, it becomes legible again. So, Chloe is just actually showing us, for everyone who's listening, Chloe is just showing on the video the silk scarf that she made as part of this project, and I'm going to make an analogy, or an example, for those who grew up in the 80s, so, you know. You know who you are. Remember hypercolor t shirts with change color when you actually made them hot? It's using the same principle but in a much more beautiful manner than hypercolor was ever used. That is such a beautiful thing and and so Your mum, she didn't die until you were age 13, but she wrote this letter when you were one year of age. Did she write it to commemorate your first birthday? She mostly wrote about how happy my parents were to have me in the world. So, I was very lucky that she had the forethought to even do something meaningful like this. Yeah. And the fact that you actually have that from a time where, you know, it predates her death by 12 years. So, I'm assuming that it had no connection to her end of life wishes, but just, it was just a celebration of being a mother and having you as her daughter. So, that is a really priceless thing that you have. Absolutely. And it wasn't until this project that I was able to fully read it properly. For it to have the impact that it did, I had to be in a better place to be able to engage with it. Yeah, it's so the case that you see that you can't really truly appreciate things until you actually have the clarity of thought to look back on it and really value it. So I'm so glad that you had that opportunity. And so what was it about this particular experience that Then, like, what were you doing your undergraduate degree in? I was doing it in industrial design. So this is product design, service design for manufacture. Throughout the undergrad, I had experimented with different materials, different ways of manufacturing things. And you fit the materials and the process to the project. And it so happened that something more textile based was appropriate for this project. And I had also created other things based on skills that I developed in that project, like this little pendant, for example. This is my mom's signature, custard and sterling silver. Oh, wow. So I was also able to create something out of something most people have on official documents. So if you don't have this letter, maybe you have a signature in their handwriting. Oh, wow. That is so clever. I've never seen a signature turned into a pendant that you can wear on a necklace in sterling silver. Like, that is such a beautiful thing and such a, again, tactile connection to something that is uniquely your mother's. Yeah. And that was the wonderful part about doing this project. Even from a design undergrad, I was able to. Connect it back to grief. And so I can see that there's a pattern developing, even though you were in design, that there did seem to be a gravitation towards, would you say you were working through your grief through each of these particular projects that you were doing? Especially in that last year, I was working through My grief. Previously in other projects, I think I was sort of skirting around it where I participated in this design for dementia studio. How can we design to make people's lives easier or improve them with dementia? I chose a particular dementia type that is similar to the disease my mom had when she died down to product design for preventing SIDS in kids, exploring how we may create something that monitors them remotely. So it all kind of. trickled in over the years with this death related projects, and finally it felt like this just needed to happen. It is interesting how the world started to kind of, you know, put you on a certain path. And just something that you mentioned there that I think that is really something that we need to acknowledge more. And that was, you just mentioned that your mother had dementia, but it was the type of dementia that she had. And I think that so many times when we talk about dementia, we put it as a big, broad blanket over the disease, but there's so many different types of it. And it depends on what you're. particular diagnosis is. So, tell me, where did you lead from there? So, you've worked on these projects, you know that there's a pattern developing, and then what, Chloe? And then I couldn't stop thinking about it. I couldn't stop thinking about all the research I had done, that all good PhDs kind of start with this Anger, this passion, this desire to change something. And that started for me with the funeral industry. The pricing right down to the options that people have, and it all seems very limited in scope. We're only just now seeing lots of diversity and variety coming out, and I think it happens very slowly. at a glacial pace. Kickstart that. Okay, so set the scene. What period are we talking about? What sort of things were you seeing that were making you feel this way? Talk me through it. I was seeing lots of costs being added on that I wasn't confident were necessary to the process because I feel like people oftentimes are dealing with a lot. And they're not able to customise the experience as much to what their family needs. So I really think there are ways to manage costs that should be more clearly prominent for families. That's really important because you want to give your loved one the best send off that you can. And that becomes this really big pressure because the funeral is really the only large point in which You have friends and family gathered, this is this wonderful big ceremony, but nothing happens after that. So there's a lot of pressure on them at one point to get it right for them. And I think we need to do more in Um, giving options to families here. And you mentioned previously also about the timeline within that period that there's, in relation to just how generally a funeral is organised very shortly thereafter the death. And what sort of impacts have you seen with that short period of timeline, perhaps that, and it hits a lot of pressure that people do put on themselves to, like you said, they feel it's the one occasion that they have to honour their loved one. And what have you seen when it's done well? And when it's not done well. When it's done well, there's more connection between each other in the family and friends that gather. When it's not done well, it can become a point of contention, which options you're going to go for. Someone disagrees, someone has a different point of view. someone has a different cultural background, that means they disagree with how it's being done. So, when it's not done well, I think it's all parties involved, and it's trying to detangle the event that has happened, your loved one dying, working through That feeling, all the physical symptoms that you get, while also negotiating lots of documents, lots of planning, and so that pressure really mounts up. And what is different to funerals that go well is when it's planned beforehand, particularly by the person who is dying, because it's much harder to argue with someone's last wishes than it is against each other. So you can bring your family together by making this choice for them. Taking this hard decision out makes it so much easier for them to focus on each other and the love they had for you. And can I ask Chloe, did you have those sorts of conversations with your mother before the disease progressed with her? Or was that something that you had the opportunity to have, or your dad may have had? No. So she died when she was 39, and I said the disease was like dementia? But it progresses rapidly, so it's called Creutzfeldt Jakob's disease, or CJD for short. Suspected sporadic case, so 90 percent of cases with this disease just happen, and the person who goes through it has dementia like symptoms because plaques build up in the brain, and they die within 6 to 18 months of symptoms showing. So there was not much opportunity after about a month or two to really talk to her because She was bed bound by then, she was already confused, and then she, like, eventually everything shut down, so there was a time in this case, and I don't think people expect to die. 39, 35, 39. But it does happen. And that's why as soon as you realize that you want to have these deaf conversations or even thinking about dying, this plan can be immensely helpful, particularly advanced care planning in addition to making a will, stating your wishes for a funeral, bequeathal of belongings. How do you want your care to look like? Because it can spring up out of nowhere and you might not even be able to Advocate for yourself. Yeah, so advanced care planning is really about what care you would like. So let's talk about how you go from, you know, you've done your dementia design project and then you've moved into your scarf and your jewellery and then you go. Okay, I'm going to look at doing a PhD. Tell me about that moment, Chloe. I felt like the work in my undergrad wasn't done because it was passive, I touched like a tiny part of it. And I also, at the same time, realised that, wait a second, I'm not finished grieving. I'm going to have this for the rest of my life, I'm going to think about this. What are some things that I hadn't done in my own grief? And it was looking at some of the physical. belongings that were left behind. I talked about that box that gets tucked away in the corner. It was still tucked away until I started my PhD and started to really unpack that. So I've always liked research and really teasing apart difficult projects and Problems, quote unquote problems, and looking at the relationships involved, whether the social factors involved, or the environmental factors, how much there is in death needs way more people and designers than just myself to look at. The PhD is the first step in developing my own creative practice in a grief death space. And then how do I branch it out from there is part of the question I hope to answer. And what have you discovered so far? How far along are you on your PhD? Talk me through where you're at in relation to the things that you're looking at. I'm fascinated about what you're studying, so talk me through it all, Chloe. So I've done my first milestone, so over a year in, and this is all the theoretical foundational base for your PhD. And from here on out, in between this first and. second to third year, I'm going to engage in a series of creative practice projects to explore different aspects of grief. So the materiality, for example, new materialism is a relatively new academic term. Founded a sensitive design that engages with death in a sensitive manner. It's very open ended. There aren't many articles in it, so I'm hoping to contribute. scholastically there. From a creative practice standpoint, I hope to create different objects through different aspects of the journey that someone is going through when a person dies. So before they die, what is required in that space? How can creative practice help people engage more here? When someone is dying, we talked about the memento mori. Is there some kind of thing that creative practice can design that enables you to think about these things at that time? Because it's not everyone's first thought, how do I memorialize this person? Oftentimes because I think the reality of the death is too close to even think about anything else. But once the body is gone, it's gone. So how can we encourage people at these times to really prepare themselves for their grief? And afterwards, there's not much support with grief. So we have this funeral. It's this big, lovely event in which your friends and family gather, you show support, and you might experience that support in a few weeks or months after that. However, in contemporary Western cultures, we don't get anything else after that. So the second year of grieving, it tends to be worse than the first year. It's when everything is settled down, you have a routine. Oh my gosh, this person has died. It all comes rushing in. So we need to find ways to help people engage with their grief after, more than just memorialization at the time of, you know, a funeral or around the deceased. And it's interesting you say that because, you know, so often people, and you've, I think you've already mentioned the terms, you know, move on, get on with life, those sorts of things, you know, you've been given the required amount of grieving time and now it's just time, aren't you over it? You know, we have heard that colloquial kind of, you know, terms used all over and over. And so it's interesting that you're actually acknowledging that. The second year can be sometimes the hardest. So that I find really fascinating and just two things that would be great for you to explain is I missed that term that you said that it's just a new term that that is scholars are using memorial, immoralization or what was the term? Was it thanatosensitive? Or Yeah, that could be it. New materialism? Could you explain both of those for us? No problem. So, I'm still looking into this concept, but new materialism really acknowledges consumeristic Western cultures and our relationships with objects. Because it's quite different in other cultures, because with the rise of industrialization and plastics, we tend to have this very use and throw out. attitude towards them instead of things that we make memories with. And I think addressing that, particularly from a grief standpoint, would be very helpful because there are lots of things that someone leaves behind. So how can we help people celebrate these objects as reminders of their loved ones and as pieces that you can continuously engage with? And thanatosensitive design is thanatos, so death, and sensitive design. It's hard to explain because it's quite a new concept and the terms are still kind of fluid and changing. In my project, thanatosensitive design is any design that engages with the death care space. So any piece of design that you create that will interface with someone. Dying, dead, or grieving. I think when this term first arose, it was primarily in a digital setting. So there's lots of research being done about digital death, what happens to your data and information online, where does it go, how do people access this, however I'm trying to kind of tease out that term and expand it into the materialism, physical aspects as well. Thanks a lot. And do you think that because we have actually moved away from being, you know, I'm just thinking the reference that you made to the patchwork quilt, the fact that over time, you know, we've seen a move away from especially handcrafts and crafts where You know, women would be associated with CWA and there'd be many tactile handcrafts and momenta. Like, I think of my grandmother, my great grandmother, I have pieces of lace, I have quilts, I have embroidery, I have all of these things that they have physically made over a period of time that they have put their love into that. I really hadn't thought of it now, but they are memento mori of those particular people. who make up me. And so we've really moved away from that sort of where women are doing those sort of handcrafts nowadays. So we have become more commercialized and more, you know, consumerized or more, you know, you know what I mean, Chloe? We buy more crap, you know, we make less, we buy more, we throw lots more out. And so how do you find that connection? in this generation now. Like I find that fascinating when we don't have people who are making things. Yeah, so there has been a drop off with that craft aspect, that creativity, that love and care into an object. So currently I've only been looking at things that have a personal touch from the deceased. There's those things we can always memorialise into different ways, like that letter and her writing, for example, into a scarf. So there's ways to transform them, impose them onto other things, create this mix of separate grief objects. Maybe it's connecting family members together, deceased family members through this one object that you combine. So it's not limited to any material form necessarily. It's about how we work through it. How we situate it in our life, for it to make sense in our life, but also to remind us of them. I find it fascinating because you're coming up with really creative and contemporary ways, like to see that beautiful design of that pendant with your mother's signature. That is just such a beautiful way in which to actually remember her, but it's just a beautiful piece of jewellery as well. Yeah, I mean, engraving is not like a super new concept, even engraving signatures, but I was working with contemporary technology, so 3D printing and how do we create an object from that, and turning it into this necklace was a way of celebrating the new technological advances we make and how they can contribute. in a really meaningful way with other types of materials. I don't know if that made sense. No, it totally does. And some other things that I'd love for you to sort of comment on and what your experience has been is that I recently attended a conference up in Sydney in relation to a carers expo, and they were showing, you know, the QR code on the gravestone that actually can then link you to a memorial page. So that's a very conventional way in which we're seeing the use of technology being used to memorialise people. What other things have you seen that perhaps aren't sort of in the mainstream as yet? Yes. So I've seen, I've more looked at physical objects rather than connecting with the digital. But one of them is this theoretical project about having little ritual objects in the home space that helped represent someone who had died. So, they created these objects based on prompts that they have. you know, uncovered on the internet, and one of them was this person missing a stubble of her deceased fiancé. She created this little brush that had little spikes of hair that you could rub on your face. They had this concept where they plaster death masks. So this person created a concept where half of the deceased face was casted, and they were able to put this on their at night, just to have that. Oh, wow. Reminder that they were there. And so it's this interesting way of looking at these objects and even this perfume humidifier. Put cologne or perfume from someone who had died in it, and it just illuminates the space. So you feel like ghosts of them in your house, because you go from having that person in your space to nothing. And so I think these little reminders are great for this transition. In grief. That's really beautiful. And it's such a new way in which to actually, I suppose, memorialize someone, but I don't know. I wouldn't say fill a gap, but it is something to help you, isn't it? A tool in which you can actually bring out of your toolbox when you are feeling bad. That's the thing that, you know, uses your, whether it's, you know, scruffing yourself on the face and giving yourself, you know, shaver's rash or, you know, whatever it be, but it's whatever. And I love the fact that, you know, it's also looking at all of the senses, so it's looking at the touch, it's looking at the smell that evokes those memories. I think that's a really beautiful way in which to go because so much of our experience with our loved ones is not just visual, it's really all encompassing, isn't it? It is. And it's great that we are looking into the digital aspects, but I don't want to do that instead of the physical aspects of grief and memorialization. I think both are quite important to explore. The senses has this way of really taking you back to a time and place. that I think is priceless. And, you know, when you were talking about how you feel someone's loss when they're no longer there, the way in which I felt it quite acutely, and it surprised me, was not my father. When he died, weirdly enough, it was actually our cat. Because you just don't realize how much they're around you all the time. And it was just their presence, so. You know, I could even just think that the versatility of also having cuddle animals for, you know, cats and things like that. I can see that tactile application as well for when we lose pets, not just when we lose humans, loved ones, you know. Absolutely. I have seen some wonderful creative projects that are kind of popping up here and there where. People send in fur from their pets, and they get felted into a mini likeness of that pet. But it's in the fur, and so that connection to the body is quite intrinsic to the experience. Yeah, and well, it's nothing that new really when you think of taxidermy, it's been done for, you know, eons, but to actually sort of make a creature in the likeness from the fur is a different way in which to actually look at it, isn't it? Absolutely. They do seem quite similar, but again, it's the viability of sending, um, Remains to a specialist who are hard to find and I suppose that's the case for all of these niche creatives, but there's more than one way to memorialize someone or a pet, even if it's very similar to another, maybe the mini likeness suits. A certain pad or it suits your home better. It just depends on the person. What I love about it is that it seems to be that everyone's thinking, certainly where the space that you're working in the moment, Chloe, it is limitless what we can do and the way in which we can use sort of almost technology and textiles. To actually really kind of provide a support for someone when we are grieving, you know, in so many different ways. What is one way that you've gone, wow, that's amazing? Put you on the spot now, haven't I? There's gotta be one that you've gone, oh gee, that's good. In combination with technology? Or just any particular one? Because I, I think the Death Mask one and the Stubble, that has to be my favourite. Yeah, I think that's pretty amazing. I tend to agree with you on that one, without a doubt. Like, I find the Death Mask, to be able to place that on the pillow next to you? Like, I can't believe that someone had that foresight to do that. Because obviously, this involves a lot of planning before someone's died. It does, and the artist that created this did create a speculative piece, so that means that it's not a product that was actually done. Because there's lots of ethical questions we need to consider before approaching someone for a project like this. But it gives ideas and inspiration for people going forward. And it does, it would require a lot of forethought. And I've seen processes of getting a death mask done, and it does not look super comfortable. Once you do it, you have a copy. You have something where you can create multiple copies. And so yeah, that forethought is quite rare. Yeah, well, you know, if it can happen to Napoleon. You know, that was quite some time ago, and we have advanced. Now tell me, what is it like, for you, what is it that you would like to see, sort of, with memorialization and our death care industry? What are you liking to see over the next five years? What would you like to see develop? There are so many things I'd like to see. We've got time, Chloe. Give us your top five. People feeling more comfortable asking for something more outlandish for their funeral. So if you're doing your own funeral planning, go big. A lot of people say, I don't care, just put me in the ground, I don't mind. That makes it so much harder for your loved ones. Embrace the thought a little bit more and explore what feels right for you. There are lots of different ways that you can be interred and in the future I hope to see many more ways, particularly acclimation and natural burials. Would love them to be much more popular and accepted by communities. No, I think that they're really interesting developments. We've had Luke Cripps on here talking about acclimation and we're certainly open to having discussions about more about natural burials and natural burial grounds within Australia and then more of them are opening up as time goes on. One thing that does come to mind that you mentioned the word ethics. That is such a realm that you have to deal with. Whereas like the normal person, if they want to do something, they can perhaps actually, you know, push the boundaries a little bit more because it's themselves. But you, Chloe, as Death Scholar, you have a different set of rules that you have to play by, don't you? Absolutely. Can you talk us through that whole, where, how, it sounds like a minefield, ethics and the death scholar space. Absolutely. It is a minefield and it's not something that people regularly talk about, particularly from a design perspective. So I'm not coming at this with a background in psychology or medicine. or lore. I need to really frame my project quite succinctly. And it does limit the creative outputs that I am able to do in a research setting. And these checks and balances are quite important so that nobody is traumatized, no one is psychologically damaged from this. It needs to really respect the participants involved, even in just interviewing other people. So ethics in a research capacity is incredibly important. And there are lots of things that I need to consider when writing up my application and editing it. So. Thinking about who is affected? How can I minimize this? Is it worth minimizing this? Is it worth doing it in the first place? So really putting what I'm trying to explore through a rigorous test, which can be quite trying. I'm sure anyone that has had to do an ethics application knows that it's a long process. It's important to do. However, there are lots of companies and businesses that don't need to go through this. Intense process to this standard. And we're seeing that a bit with newer deaf and technology projects. So, for example, there was this project about recording a person's voice and going through their social media, like, digital history to recreate them. And I think that's actually been put in practice with real life people. That should never have happened, in my opinion. That should have been thoroughly checked and vetted by an external institution or oversight body because we are altering the course of someone's grief and grief is for life. So I think it's very important to consider how you're going to affect someone else. So ethics, while tricky and long and rigorous, very important in making sure that we are not making this worse for someone and we are gaining valuable insight. I think that example that you use is a fantastic example of where, how fast technology is developing. and how quickly we can access these digital footprints that we can leave or we do leave behind. And I think it also brings up the point of what we can do in relation to controlling our own lives and our own profiles is making those. Decisions while we can about how we want those digital footprints to be used when we're no longer here. I think that they're definitely conversations that people need to have when you are aware that your social media is out there forever, unless you make a decision to either have it memorialized or shut down. Absolutely. I think part of that comes down to, even with all the objects that you leave behind, is curation. But no matter how much you control, you never know what you're leaving behind means to someone else. So if you get rid of something that you didn't think was significant, but it was to someone who loved you, that's taking it away from them. So it's, it's a really tricky space to kind of manage that. But I think the best thing for digital memorialization is Passwords, who gets access to your account, working through all of that. I mean, all of these conversations about digital makes me think about autonomy. Like, you don't have any control over it anymore. And newer technology, as you said, just keeps shooting forward without any kind of reconsideration of why we're doing it, and can end up doing things like impersonating the deceased just through their voice. making them say other things. It's this weird ghost alter gas situation that we are left with afterwards because it's not authentic, in my opinion. Well, there's no one behind it, really. It's just a voice code, isn't it, really? That's an imprint. It's not a real human. Something that, Matt, you just brought up then that made me think of, you know, what we decide to leave behind because what I find that has been the most significant and heartfelt things from the loved ones that have died, that belong, you know, my loved ones, is really weird things. Like, I have a pair of glasses that my father in law lost in the water and I found them a week later, you know, in the same spot where he dropped them. But that was the one thing that I said, look, do you mind if I have the glasses when he died? Because that was a story associated with it. And likewise, you know, my father's binoculars that he taught me how to, you know, look at the birds diving and see where fish were to go fishing. You know, that's what I have, you know, they're all crusty and bit sandy and no longer work, but they're the things that. are dear to me. And do you find when you've been doing the research that they always have a story? The things that are significant to people? In what I have seen, that is the case for myself in particular. It's always the things you don't expect. It depends on how you associate the object with that person. So my mum had this Really big nacho chip bowl with a little dip bowl inside and I've never seen it used But I can't get rid of it because it's associated with her. Some of the weirder objects are her mascara I've never used it. I'm never gonna use it. I don't think it's very hygienic, but I remember seeing her, yeah, seeing her put it on in the morning before she went to work. Yeah, yeah Even smelling objects like that, the framed photo of my mom from the funeral, it's not a photo that I would associate with her, but I associate with her death instead. Even though she is younger in that photo, I think the connection there is what was at the funeral. Because sometimes you keep those objects and they end up becoming Something you cannot let go of. It is interesting, isn't it? Yeah, even the nightgown that she wore in hospice, that, never seen her wear it, but it's there now. I can't get rid of it. It touched her body. It was near her when she was dying. So it's always the strange things. It's a really beautiful reminder and we will definitely put all of this in the show notes so people can have a look at what you have held dear and you can see the nacho bowl with the dip bowl in the middle and things like, you know, Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code. There's a cap there. Lots of old school photos before everyone went digital. And vinyl, you know, there's the Cure, I have to say, that's a bit of a favourite of mine. But it is really interesting and I think that it's good for people to have a look at this sort of thing because it's not what you expect is the things that hold the memories are valuable, is it? You know, it's those other things. And again, it comes down to that question of, you know, we always ask about the funeral. Who is the funeral for? Is it for the person who's died, or is it for the person, people who were left behind? And I suppose, do you ask that same question about when you're looking at you know, memento mori, and is it a true representation of the person that was there, or is it actually held in the memories who were left behind? Oh, that's great. I think it's a bit of both. Like I think these objects hold memories just in the wear of them. So, scratches, nicks, discolorations, that shows a history of it. That history is alongside the deceased person, so it's both in yourself as someone wanting to memorialize someone else, it's the memories you have, but it's also the memories that are sparked and inspired by those objects as well. It's a little bit of both. Yeah, it is, isn't it? Well, look, Chloe, I have to say, I am so excited that research like yours is being done, and it's being documented, and it's being published, so people can learn that there's so many different amazing ways that we can really I'm You know, honor our loved ones and continue past, you know, the first year onto the fact that the grief is, as you mentioned, you know, grief is for life. And I think that, you know, that the work that you're doing is really beautiful. Is there anything else that you would like to share with our audience today and about the work that you're doing or in grief at all? It's the thing that drives me forward. It's this misconception of what grief is. So, it's still perpetuated today, the five stages of grief, and that is incorrect to the study that was conducted. So Elizabeth Kubler Ross created this model, and she did a fantastic job for the time period in which she researched and worked, in terms of the five stages of dying, which is what it was originally called. It was later adapted to grief, and that, that research study and adapting it to grief, it has no connection to me. There is no research done at that time on, you know, what are people's responses to grieving a deceased loved one. So, moving on, letting go. These have been debunked for 20 plus years, and we need to move through other models now. It's had its time in the sun, now we need to consider models, even models better represented in media. So that's where people get a lot of these concepts of death from, is social media, it's movies, it's shows, it's the entertainment industry. And we tend to go for really short, snappy, easy to remember models, and I think that's why it's stuck around, and it's easier to tell someone, this is what is going to happen. This is not what happens. It's messy. Fifteen, sixteen years later, I'm still going to cry as hard as I did the day she died. So it's going to come back again, and it's not something that I have to forget. Or. Not remember, because you're putting distance between yourself and your loved one who had died when you try to fit the experience into this box. So I think it's okay to be close to what happened, in whatever capacity you need. There are no rules for this. It doesn't have to go from A to B. It's just going to be this whole journey. I think that is very true and a great comment to end on. And I would also say that it seems to be that however you remember that person is also entirely up to you individually. Absolutely. People remember each other differently. That's what funerals do, you all come together and you share stories and you learn new things about the person who died that you never knew before. Yeah, everyone always says that at a funeral, I never knew that. And it's great, these little surprises and glimpses of what a person is like in different situations. It's a, it's a real gift. Well, thank you so much for sharing the wonderful and important work that you're doing, Chloe. I really look forward to seeing, you know, where we go from here and how it develops over the next few years. Me too. Thanks Catherine. Thanks Chloe. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead. Brought to you by Critical Info. If you liked the episode, learnt something new, or were touched by a story you heard, we'd love for you to let us know. Send us an email. Even tell your friends. Subscribe so you don't miss out on new episodes. If you can spare a few moments, please rate and review us as it helps other people to find the show. Are you dying to know more? Stay up to date with. Don't be caught dead by signing up to our newsletter and follow us on social media Head to Don't Be Caught dead.com for more information and loads of resources.