The Power of Compassion with Dr Hayley D Quinn

In this episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, we dive deep into the often-avoided topic of death, grief, and the importance of compassion in navigating these challenging experiences. Join me as I chat with Dr Hayley D Quinn, an anti-burnout business coach and former clinical psychologist, who shares her insights on how compassion can transform our relationships with ourselves and others, especially during times of loss.

Dr. Hayley opens up about her journey from burnout to empowerment, highlighting the significance of self-compassion and the three flows of compassion: from ourselves to others, from others to ourselves, and the often-overlooked self-compassion. We discuss how these elements play a crucial role in both personal and professional realms, particularly for women entrepreneurs who often juggle multiple responsibilities. With practical tips and heartfelt anecdotes, Dr. Hayley encourages us to embrace our authentic selves and to have those difficult conversations about death and dying that can alleviate future suffering.

As we navigate the complexities of grief, Dr. Hayley reminds us that there is no right way to grieve and that being kind to ourselves is essential. We explore the importance of preparing for the unexpected, discussing how having open conversations about our wishes and plans can ease the burden on our loved ones when the time comes. This episode is a gentle nudge to face the uncomfortable truths about death while fostering a compassionate approach to ourselves and those around us.

Key points from our discussion:

• Understanding the three flows of compassion: self-compassion, compassion for others, and receiving compassion.
• The importance of having open conversations about death and dying to prevent additional suffering.
• Practical tips for self-care and checking in with ourselves during times of grief.
• The significance of aligning our lives and businesses with our core values.
• How compassion can transform our relationships and enhance our well-being.

Resources Mentioned:

• Dr. Hayley's podcast: https://drhayleydquinn.com/podcast/
• Welcome to Self®: Time to Thrive Group Business Coaching https://drhayleydquinn.myflodesk.com/timetothrivewaitlist
• Book:

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Transcript

0:02

There is no right way to grieve. Grief is a very individual process and there's no particular way that you should be or shouldn't be in that. Grief isn't just about the loss of. a human being. So I think really we need to a, broaden our horizon of what grief actually means. Remember for ourselves that there is not a correct way to do this. However you're feeling and whatever you're doing is the right way. Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead. A podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life. Because while you may not be ready to die, At least you can be prepared. Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations and recognises their connection to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their Elders, past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. Today I'm speaking with Dr Hayley Quinn. Hayley is an anti burnout business coach, speaker, trainer, author and former clinical psychologist. Dr Hayley is founder and director of Welcome to Self, a company that helps women entrepreneurs transform their relationships with themselves and their businesses so they can succeed without compromising their well being. She is also the host of the popular Welcome to Self podcast. Whilst overcoming burnout herself, Dr. Hayley discovered the power of compassion and developed sustainable ways of working. She now guides women to step out of the shadows, embrace their authenticity and build a thriving business aligned with their values. With a blend of empathy, compassion and practical skills, she empowers her clients to stop playing small, take up space And create a life and business that nourishes them. Dr. Hayley believes that if you thrive, your business will thrive too. Thanks for joining us, Dr. Hayley. Oh, thanks so much for having me. It was lovely to connect recently and talk about coming on the podcast. So we met online and we're both members of the networking group, One Roof, and I'm in Melbourne and you're. You're north of me, aren't you? Sunshine Coast in Queensland. That's right. And so we had a bit of a chat prior to Christmas about the work that you do. And I'm really fascinated about the fact that it's based around compassion. So can you talk to me a little bit about You know, what is the power of compassion? Yeah, definitely. So I always like to start with what is compassion, because I think there's a lot of misunderstandings around what that is, and I think often people think it's quite a kind of weak, soft, let yourself off the hook kind of thing, and it's really not. The definition by Professor Paul Gilbert, who's the founder of Compassion Focused Therapy. And that is that compassion is a sensitivity to suffering in ourselves and others with a commitment to alleviate or prevent the suffering. So I think it's really important to start there because one of the key foundations of compassion is courage. And certainly in the sort of work you do, people are suffering. Yeah, and we need to have this sensitivity to suffering, but also in the work that I do with women who are running businesses, they can get caught up in a lot of suffering in that as well and oftentimes minimize it. So I think one of the things that's really helpful is when we can build a compassionate mind. and a compassionate self. And then we can respond to ourselves differently in all sorts of situations, but also respond to other people differently. And we'll talk more about that, I'm sure as we go on. So it sounds like it's one of those things where it kind of reminds me when you were talking about, you know, when you're on the airplane and they always say, put your mask on first before you put your mask on someone else that you need to. really focus within yourself before you can actually really help others? Would that be the sort of thing that it is, is based on? Is, is really that power that you give to yourself first? Yeah. Well, I think, you know, really, when we think about it, we need to take care of ourselves. We need to take care of others. We need to take care of community. We need to take care of mother earth. So for me, it's all of it. And with compassion as well, there's a lot of talk online around self compassion. And self compassion is really, really important. But it's not the only flow of compassion. There's three flows of compassion. There's compassion from ourselves to others, and many, many people, particularly women, and particularly the women I work with who run service based businesses, tend to be very good at offering compassion to other people. Then there is the self compassion and this is one that people can really struggle with. And then there's also compassion from others. And again, people can really struggle with receiving compassion from other people. So we tend to find that people find it easier to give the compassion outward. Then to give it to themselves or receive it from other people and it's important that we look at all three flows And that's interesting because when you're actually saying when you there's two things that come to mind We're about the two elements that you're talking about there with the giving of compassion and then also the receiving of the compassion So that immediately makes me think of when someone has died and that confusion around you know You'd like to support someone, but you don't know how, and then that other side of the coin, if you're the person who has actually had someone pass away and die, and you know, how do you respond when people want to offer you? And sometimes that can be really challenging because people always have the You know, I don't think anyone says something to someone who is grieving that is ill intent. But sometimes it can be taken the wrong way, and sometimes we say things that are a little, a little cliche sometimes, because sometimes we don't know what we should be saying. So it'd be great if we could talk through more of those three elements in detail, and see how we can sort of maybe delve and support, see how we can talk to people about supporting Those in those situations, because that's really challenging and I'm sure you've seen many of those sort of scenarios in your work as well. Yeah, so I think the first thing I would say is particularly in Western cultures. definitely in Western culture. We don't deal with death. We don't talk about death. We don't teach people how to navigate death. You know, when I met you, I was really, I remember saying to you, I was really excited about the work you do because this is something we need to talk more about and we just don't. So one of the first things I'd say is if you are in a situation where somebody close to you has had somebody die and you don't know What to say, or you're feeling awkward, go gently with yourself. It's understandable that you don't know how to navigate this, because likely as nobody's ever told you. Yeah, yeah. And, and this can be one of the first things. It's like, come back to that. Does this make sense that I'm feeling this way? And when it comes to grief, I think for many of us, it would be, yes, of course, it makes sense because this is not a topic that we discuss, we're taught about, people tend to want to avoid it. I think I said to you in my phone that I like talking about death, sounds a bit weird, but I like having these conversations because I think they're important when I was working as a psychologist. I worked with numerous people who had lost a loved one and none of these conversations had ever happened around, you know, what would happen if one of us dies, how are the household finances worked out or where are important paperwork, anything like that. And the additional suffering on top of the grief of the loss was heartbreaking. So for me, being able to have these conversations within families as professionals, what are you going to do with your business if you die? What happens with the things in your business? Because somebody, one of your loved ones or one of your colleagues is going to have to deal with that. If none of these conversations are happening, these are going to be additional layers of suffering. That's exactly the situation that we found ourselves in. And it really is challenging because you go straight into action mode. You know, that's, I don't know whether that's the based on the whole fight or flight when you're, you know, you, you, you. because we were in shock because of our friend Roland. It was a heart attack and it was a totally unexpected. So you just go into action mode and so you are constantly thinking about the logistics and you know and before you realize that you're already in the thick of it and you really haven't. And what we found is, you know, we didn't even know where his keys were and, and, you know, we've been choked that we can't, we can't park downstairs, but, like, these are just the silly things that you find yourself, like, having to deal with. And so, I, I totally agree with you with what I've found in our situation is, had we known some of that information, and just, in my, You know, the children didn't even know whether Colin wanted a cremation, or whether he wanted to be buried, so they had to make those decisions, and they're really challenging decisions to make in the speak of grief. Of course, and you know, you mentioned you don't actually know, and I think part of that is part of the normal process, because when somebody dies, certain things have to happen, but it's that additional layer of, If we didn't have to deal with all that, yes, we could do the practical things we have to do, and then we could move towards grief. The other thing I'd like to say is, there is no right way to grieve. Grief is a very individual process, and there's no particular way that you should be or shouldn't be in that, whether you are directly impacted or indirectly impacted. And also just as a side note as well, grief isn't just about the loss of a human being. People can have significant grief reactions to pets, to the loss of a home, to the change of a circumstance. So I think really we need to A, broaden our horizon of what grief actually means, And also remember for ourselves that there is not a correct way to do this. However you're feeling and whatever you're doing is the right way. Now, obviously, if you're causing harm to yourself, we want to make sure you're getting help. And if grief is becoming extremely prolonged to the point that you can't get on and function in your life, then obviously go and seek help from your GP or a psychologist or, you know, speak to a trusted. person in your life. In general, there is no right or wrong way to grieve. And I think that's really important for people to know. And I think also the other thing that I find is that grief can raise its ugly head, not just at the time of the incident. And like you said, you know, like for me personally. I certainly grieved when, after my car accident, and it was a whole change of lifestyle for me and a whole change of career, so there was a lot of grieving that I went through. But it can also be something that rears its ugly head. years after as well. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think people have to be kind about that too, to themselves. Absolutely. And this is where that sort of compassion to self comes in of actually how can you be with yourself and how can you talk to yourself and what kind of actions can you take that are going to be helpful, not harmful. And can you talk us through some of those actions that you suggest? Is that something that you could give us an indication of, Dr. Hayley? Look, I think a lot of that is going to be individual to what somebody needs for themselves. Obviously speaking to yourself in a kind and friendly voice tone. is more helpful than being self critical. And again, depending on the relation, if we'd say we're talking about the relationship with a human being that's died, depending on your relationship with that person is really going to influence what shows up for you after death. There may be complexities to that. So it's not really a stock answer, but certainly being kind to yourself, coming back to that is what I'm doing. Helpful, not harmful. You know, having the odd glass of wine. isn't going to do you any harm, but if, if you were drinking a bottle of wine every day for weeks on end after a loved one had died. Then you're likely going to be causing yourself a problem. Yeah, so I think for me it's coming back to those Things like what is it that I need right now checking in with yourself and that as well can be hard again You know grief can be Something that shows up lightly to something that is so profound. I think when we think about the flows of compassion and you mentioned before, sometimes people can find it hard to receive compassion or receive help from people when they've had a loss. And some of that may be because of the kind of cliched things that end up not being very helpful. Some of it can be because they've had a lifetime of finding it hard to receive help from people. Yeah. And this is why, for me, building this relationship, this compassionate relationship with yourself now is helpful for in the future when difficult things happen. Yeah? Trying to do this in the eye of the storm is obviously going to be more difficult than if it's something that you've practiced in your life before the things But if we can, and the other thing people can often think is that by asking for help or being willing to accept help is a sign of weakness. And what I would say to that is it's actually a sign of great strength, particularly if it's something that you struggle with. Yeah, it's interesting. We had a situation recently where it was a family occasion and there was a series of speeches and there was a friend of my son who gave a speech and you could have heard a pin drop during his speech and What it was is that we have seen him over years of, you know, high school develop into the beautiful young man he's become. And that has been because he's worked really hard at developing those skills. Because it came from a background which was not where you, you gave speeches, I suppose. It was pretty challenging. And so, for us to see him have developed those skills, especially in the last few years where he's been out in the workforce and his living situation has improved and for him to be able to give that speech that he gave the other night was just so beautiful and so heartfelt and everyone in the room felt the love. because it was a real progression of how much he has developed and how much He has developed his confidence And his sense of self and well being during that time And that was really really beautiful to see because you're right, you know, not everyone Comes from the same backgrounds and whatever baggage we have in our upbringing we carry with us into the future And what was so beautiful was in this one moment to actually see This young man, you know presents so beautifully and really, you know He's becoming himself and who he chooses to be which was just something so lovely. Yeah, I think you know It's important for us to do these practices and start to develop this different relationship with ourselves at times when we're not in high stress Because then when the challenges and the difficulties or the losses arrive, we have this part of ourselves we can draw upon to help us through. We can be sensitive to our own suffering and have a commitment to want to alleviate and prevent the suffering. We are more motivated to do it differently. And where does one start? Like, I totally understand that, you know, being a female and an entrepreneur and a solo founder as well. I can totally understand that you, you do work with women in business. Because we do wear so many hats and, and we have so many responsibilities. And we, and, and in times of crisis we are generally the ones that kind of have to bring it together or step up to the plate to do things. So, where do you start before we get to crisis mode? Well, I, I would say and probably say to most people, start with just slowing down and taking a breath. I'll often just put my hand on my heart, just take a breath in and a long breath out, which even that can be really difficult for people. So maybe for some people it might be starting by acknowledging that, wow, this is going to be really difficult for me. I've never actually thought about taking care of myself. I've never actually given myself permission to slow down. Or it might be accessing a book. I know for me, I was a single parent at university. I'd been in a domestic violence relationship. So, you know, life had its challenges. And I came across the Mindful Path to Self Compassion book by Chris Germer. And I read it and I remember reading it, you know, this is great. And then obviously I was a single parent. I was sometimes working up to three jobs. I was extremely busy. This was before I burnt out, funnily enough. And I kind of put it aside and didn't do much with it. And then fortunately for me, when I was a psychologist, part of my training was learning compassion focused therapy. So I had the benefit of being able to kind of learn this as part of my work to help my clients. But the beautiful thing about compassion focused therapy is that you embody it. So that you can work well with your clients. And it was an absolute life changer for me personally and professionally. And there's some really beautiful resources out there around compassion. There's lots of stuff on the internet. I have a podcast for business owners and talk a lot about these kinds of things on the podcast as well. But some of it might be that you commit to just speaking to yourself a little bit nicer. During the week and you know, we all have that inner critic mine used to be my default and she was brutal Over the years and through practice my default now is more sort of hand on heart. Oh my gosh, darling I know this is really hard. You're doing the best you can I never would have thought that I'd speak to myself like that many years ago So it might be that you catch yourself when you're like, oh god, you're so stupid. Why did you do that? It's so stupid It's like oh, okay I noticed that I'm talking to myself really harshly. How would I speak to my loved one? How would I speak to my best friend? And then actually say that to yourself. Because none of us, I would imagine, but probably wouldn't be friends for long, are saying to your friends like, Oh my God, you're so stupid. You're such an idiot. Why did you? Beep do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yet we think that that's fine to talk to ourselves like that. Yeah, like my relationship with myself was hideous. I had a very brutal self critic. And over time, I was able to change that and develop a much more compassionate response to myself, which like I say, is now a default for me. And I never would have thought that was possible. So if I can come from where I came from with my relationship with myself, honestly, you can do this. And it really is helpful and it helps you have these hard conversations as well. So I have a bit of a buddy with you. You know, when you're going to go do something tough, you've kind of got this compassionate part of yourself. It's like, come on early. I know this is hard, but we've got this. You can do it. And it is really a different, I found when I went through the process also of just changing that inner voice, I think it made me more tolerant, empathetic person, because the way in which I'd frame things, I'd be more mindful of how I framed them when I was talking to myself. So I found myself, I suppose, more mindful when I had those conversations with other people. And you're right, like that, one of the first things that, that I learned was finding that time for yourself. Yeah. You know, and just It started off with me just having a cup of tea in the morning and just sitting there with a cup of tea and the dog and the annoying cat. But I still love them. But sitting there for a full cup of tea length of time before I did anything else and that's a long time to start off with. And then after a while you go, oh gee that went quickly. Yeah. But at the start it was like I felt found myself really fidgety. And, and really hard to get in the process of allowing myself time for myself. Yeah. And that's so normal, like in CFT Compassion Focus Therapy, we talk about the three circle emotion regulation system. So we've got the red circle, which is the threat system, and that's on 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And certainly when people are in grief, that's going to be a system that's highly activated and at other times, then we have the drive system or the blue circle. And that's the part of the system that motivates us to pursue and achieve. And then we have the green circle or the soothing system, which is our rest and digest, tend and befriend system. So this is when we're not under threat, we're not trying to pursue or achieve anything. We can relax more. We have that sense of safeness, contentment. It's a calmer space and we feel more connected to ourselves and others. Now what can happen and you describe that so beautifully is when people are trying to move towards that soothing system, it can activate the threat because we're not used to it. So you start to get agitated. So you're starting to move into that fight flight. Yeah. Your nervous system starts to kind of up regulate. And this is where some of the breathing practices can come, be really, really helpful because they can help down regulate that system. So as you're perhaps sitting, and I'll often say to people, can you just take a few minutes and perhaps sit and have a cup of tea? So that was. Fantastic example you used there. Oh good, I'm glad. Just lead into that well, thank you very much. And as you do that, just notice your breath. Because you may find you get agitated. I've got to do this, I've got to get the kids ready, or I've got to do that thing, or that work thing, or, you know, I should be doing something else. This is lazy. All those kind of things that start to show up. So really noticing what's happening with your breath. And then slowing down your breath. And when we're doing that, we want to make sure that our out breath is equal to or longer than our in breath. When we think about when we breathe in, that activates our sympathetic nervous system, which is a bit like the accelerator on the car. And when we breathe out, we activate the parasympathetic nervous system, which is like putting the brakes on. So if we're doing, you know, like at school, it's like, take a big deep breath. Yeah, yep. What we need to be saying is, take a long breath out. Yeah, that's interesting. Because if we just take big breaths in, and we've only got little out breaths, we're actually activating ourselves too much. See, something explained like that, simply in the way in which you've explained it, that it's, because when I find myself in these situations, I always do focus on the breathing in, and raising the chest, and making sure I expand my diaphragm as much as possible. But really, my focus should always be on the breath out. Is that what you're saying? Absolutely. And also when you're breathing in, and this can be tricky for people and a lot of women when I worked with clients as a psychologist, obviously do a lot of these breathing exercises with clients and particularly with women, when I'd say, okay, I want you to focus on breathing. into the belly. Yeah. And people don't want to do that. Yeah. Why is that? Well, I mean, as women, we grow up in this society that says, you know, you should be stick thin and not have a stomach. So we don't want to breathe out and make our stomach bigger. you know, we actually want to breathe deep into our belly. So if you had your hand on your chest and on your belly, it's your hand on your belly that wants to be doing the moving when you're breathing in. Yeah, okay. And they're simple things that you can do anywhere because, you know, it's a simple practice of just putting your hand on your belly and your chest and seeing which moves. So breathing into your belly and then a nice equal or longer out breath. That's fantastic. Thank you very much for sharing that one Hayley. That's much appreciated. No, it's an absolute pleasure. So yeah, I think doing the breathing techniques, speaking to yourself kindly and a regular practice I have is just checking in with myself. It's like, hey How am I going? How are you going Hayley? What do I need right now? And it might be I need some water. It might be I need to eat. It might be I need to go and sit down. It might be I need to go move my body. You know, I sit at my computer quite a bit. It might be that you need to reach out. for some help with something, particularly if you're in that grieving process. It might be that you need to go and get under your doona and just have a good cry. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever it might be, but checking, getting into this habit of regularly checking in with yourself. Now you mentioned before you, you and I are both business owners. I certainly work with women business owners. And if you're running a business and you're a solo business owner, life doesn't just stop because you've got a business to run, right? No, it certainly doesn't, does it? And these things happen and we have grief and loss. I think, I can't remember if it was just before I met you or just after I met you, that we had a loss of a close friend. And for me, that meant really letting go of a lot of the things that I didn't need to get done. I still had some clients I wanted to see. I felt able to see them, but a lot of the other stuff I looked around and asked myself, what is it that I don't need to be doing? Because I think one of the things we can underestimate is. The cognitive or thinking impact it can have, the emotional impact tends to be more obvious with grief, but also the fatigue and how tired we can become because our body is doing so much more. And that's often underestimated. And we need to take these things into account. I'll often hear people say, Oh yeah, but my clients need me or yeah, but I've got to get that thing done or you know, what if my business stops completely if I don't tend to it? So there can be a lot of fear again that then adds to the suffering. It's interesting that you say that because around about the same time and you had just actually lost that close friend before we spoke and I think it was around about the same time that Rosie Batty was speaking at the Frankston Library here just before Christmas and I went along and I spoke to her because I just finished her book Hope which is her second book that she released and that covers that. period from when she became Australian of the Year and those years after. And it talks about her struggles in relation to being so busy, still trying to grieve for Luke but being really, really busy and the amount of engagements and appointments she felt compelled to attend because she was given this. Platform which she would not normally have had and the toll that it took on her And so when I met her just before christmas I thanked her for her honesty and and how she Really explained that that period and she was very vulnerable in in what she you know, divulge. And I said, thank you for sharing that because I've just actually booked out my entire calendar for all of January, really, to make sure I get a good month break and I'm not focusing on work and everything can wait because it really brought home to me that, you know, whatever I do is for the long haul. And it needs to be, and you know, I, I should know better because obviously I've had to, I have to manage my chronic pain and have to be very mindful of my physicality with the issues that I have with the neuropathic pain. But it was something that just brought it home going, you know what, the problems are still going to be there. And in a month's time, I need to actually take the time off to make sure that I am actually fit enough to go back and deal with them. Absolutely. Having experienced a significant burnout, like I didn't know at the time, like I've chosen to no longer be a registered psychologist. I love my business coaching and other work I'm doing. But when I had my burnout. I was very much, you know, wanting to be a psychologist and didn't know if I was going to be able to continue to do that. I literally had to walk away from where I was working. I ended up starting up for myself in a home based business and just really taking it easy and starting that up small. But I didn't know whether I was going to be able to do that. And I had so many lessons whilst that was not a great time in my life. And there was a lot of grief and loss around identity and what having chronic illness meant, because that's what I developed for me through a burnout. Whilst it was a really difficult time. It was also a time that gave me so many lessons that I'm so, so grateful for. And it was really the catalyst of me moving more into, well, hang on, what is the life I want to live and I can. And I can do that just because I want to. I can make choices about what I want, just because that's what I want. So, it was a complex time, but I'm very grateful for the lessons I learned from it. And now my mind's just gone, what on earth are you talking about, Hayley? Ah, dear! That's so reassuring, because everyone will be going, Ha! See? Just is a normal woman after all, you know, like we have moments where we're all together and then all of a sudden we're not. Yeah. It's like, hang on. I'm sure I had a brain about a minute ago, but that part of me just left the room. I love it. I love it. I think I've come back to it. Um, about this. The importance of actually taking care of you for the long haul, because the fear of what might go wrong in the next little while is not what you want driving your decisions. And this is where, when we can come back to this compassionate self, the qualities of compassion are wisdom, strength, and courage. And the wisdom piece is so important. And we want to be able to regulate our nervous system. So when we can implement these breathing techniques and we can down regulate our system, well, that might be that for you, it might be listening to some soothing music. It might be going for a walk. It might be being in water. It might be doing the breathing. Getting to know what helps you regulate your nervous system is really, really important. When we can do that. And we're in that, that green circle is the more dominant one. We can access our wisdom because we're not in the threat space when we're in threat. All we're interested in is get safe, get safe, get safe. It doesn't really matter how we do that. We just need to get safe. Now, if you're in a situation that is dangerous and you need to run away, Get safe, run away is a really great idea. If you're fearful of something that may not actually be a reality, running away from it probably isn't going to be the most helpful. Yeah. Like we were talking about earlier, avoiding conversations about death with your family or your business partners or your colleagues. If you're running away from those conversations, that's because threat is making the decision. Wisdom would more likely be telling you. Sit down and have the conversation about what you want. Sit down and have the conversation around where the keys to the thing is. Have the conversation around where are the important documents I might need. I run a building company with my husband and then I've got my own business. And I'm always trying to have these conversations with my husband and son. I get rolled eyes sometimes, but I persist because I know it's important. Because I've sat with people in such distress, that had they had these conversations, yes they would be grieving, but their suffering wouldn't be layer upon layer because of the things that they now have to try and figure out on their own. And I sat down with my husband and I did up an Excel spreadsheet and literally listed all of our things, who we have insurance with, who we have this with, who we have that, what are the policy numbers, what are the contact numbers. And I said to him, we'll just keep this updated. We'll have a shared copy, and if anything happens to one or the other of us, at least we've got that. It's so interesting that you say that because I have always grown up with that sort of documentation. My mother was a very organized woman and president of many committees and local health centers, and my father was a clerk of the coroner's court. So, for me, I just thought that was normal, you know, and my, my other siblings, you know, they all joined the forces, so they naturally, you know, I think that within the second day of joining any armed force in Australia, you have to actually write a will. That's just a fait accompli, but, you know, it wasn't until, and my husband, I have to you know, apologize in advance again. I use him as the example that he had no idea when I met him, you know, about that paperwork and what was required and because, you know, documenting your wishes is so important and again, you know, it was what we did with Roland that started off as an Excel spreadsheet and I worked with his children. We worked through that Excel spreadsheet that I had, you know, it's, what can I say, I was a producer of events so, you know. the Excel spreadsheets, my love. And then that has what has been, you know, turned into that critical info platform. So there is some way in which we can guide people about what sort of documents they need, what sort of things they need to consider, like even such things as you were mentioning pets before, you know, pets are part of our family. So a lot of people. Forget that we have to also consider what their care plans are and it's not just preparing for when we die Because you know the perception what I find Sometimes is that when we talk about end of life planning and advanced care planning people only think oh That's something that you do when you get old, but I was hit from behind on my way to work and that changed my life and I had to go to hospital. So at any point in time, we could come across situations where we have an illness or we find ourselves in hospital or even overseas. You know, we made sure that our son, before he went overseas, he actually completed all of this information. So, if we needed to assist him with anything while he was overseas, we could do that. And I think that when, like you were saying, people get caught up in the idea of, well, I'm not going to die now, or I'm not old enough to plan, all of these things that the conversations we have in our head, but in reality, it should just be like, If you run a business, you have public liability insurance, you know, standard stock standard thing. So if you run a business, you actually have a succession plan. So everyone around you knows that you actually have this many websites that you manage, this many domains, you know, where's your insurance policy. Do you have someone that can make decisions if you can't make those decisions for your business, you know, have those conversations like you were saying your husband and you have had. Yeah, I think that that it really is important that we don't leave it. Until we think that we're at the age that we need it. Yeah, and I think some of the other stuff is, that there is this thing of, you know, it won't happen to me. Well, I mean, we all know it will happen to us, but we think, oh, it won't happen to me for another however many decades, hopefully. Or, you know, this doesn't need to be done now. But it can also be That for some people thinking about this stuff triggers grief and they don't want to go there. So I would say, like, if that's the case, do what you can to address that. Whether that's by yourself or whether that's with a helping professional. And bring that sense of compassion. Acknowledge for yourself, this is really hard. When I think about talking about death with my family, like I know for me, if I think about my son in these topics, I can feel it now, I get this overwhelming sense of sadness. I don't want to die and leave him and I certainly don't want him to die. So that for me, I know is something that I'm like, okay, if I'm going to address things around that, that's going to be really challenging and it's going to feel painful. And I can still do that. I can be with myself in a way that allows me to be sensitive to the suffering that I'm experiencing. So maybe that's something I need to do a bit more gently, a bit slower, or over time. But I can still do it, because if I don't do the thing, then I'm not alleviating suffering. I'm actually potentially creating more suffering down the track. I think this is, for me, where compassion is just so powerful. And in your business, you know, if you don't want to think about, or if thinking about, well, if I step away, like you said, I blocked out your calendar for a month, some people that might just be paralyzing. It's like, well, I can't do that. And it's like, okay, that's a month. Think about what that's going to mean in a year. If you had to pay somebody to do some of the tasks so you could take the month, if you're in a position to do so, what will that mean in 12 months? Because if you push through that month when you really needed to take that time for yourself, then in 12 months, maybe you don't have a business or maybe you have a business, but you're hanging on by the skin of your teeth because you're just feeling completely burnt out. So we have to think past the right now. It's kind of both. It's like what needs to happen right now. That's going to be helpful and prevent further suffering in the future. Yeah, and it's, it just reminded me of something else while you were talking then, Dr. Hayley, was, you know, when I was working at the, the Royal Botanic Gardens, I'd been there for 13 years, I thought it was my life and it was going to be. My forever job. Absolutely loved it. And It was my focus. It was my one and all. It would be something that I didn't mind working, you know. And certainly event management is definitely a flight or fight, um, constant state that you're in with managing, uh, managing events. But, you know, I, I thought it was something that I'd be doing forever. But something that I had to come to realize and was a really challenging thing for me is that I'm replaceable. And the fact that, you know, that job's still there, someone else has filled it, and someone else I'm sure is doing a very good job of it, but I had to come to the realisation that It wasn't the be all and end all when it come, like when you're brought back to the base element of what matters and your health and you have to make those choices. And I'm sure when you had your burnout, you had a very similar process that you had to go through about what you valued in life. Oh, absolutely. And when you come back to that, you know, I had to realize that and grieve for the fact that I was replaceable and I did have to leave my job and what I thought defined me and made me who I was because I thought that I was defined by that particular role and I think I held on to that really closely because that was my first job that I had after I went back to work after I had had a child so I think that that also made that stronger for me that that defined me. And then when I hear numerous conversations that you hear within this industry, is that no one has ever said in the last few, you know, months of their life, that, It was their job that they loved the most or that they wanted their job around them when they were dying or they were given a life limiting illness. It always comes down to family and friends. Absolutely, nobody's like, I wish I'd spent another hour in the office. Might say, I wish I'd spent another hour sitting on the beach watching the sunset, but not, I wish I'd spent another hour in the office. Absolutely. It's about the experiences and the relationships and the connections that we have in life. I think all the research points to that, but I think you raise a really interesting point around identity as well. Certainly for me with my burnout, that shook my identity when I had chronic illness. It's like, what's that mean? I was then later identified as. Neurodivergent autism and ADHD at 52. So that was another identity thing as well, which has been great. And then I did a lot of work around my identity as a psychologist or clinical psychologist, because I knew that I was starting to move away from that. And had I not done that work, I literally chose not to renew my registration in November of last year. Had I not already done that work around identity, I think the grief and loss around that would have been immense. Because I'd done the work, I was able to move forward. I've been running two businesses, and again, I don't ever want to be burnt out again. And I was realizing that that's probably not the best way to do that. Yeah. Because I wanted to go fully in on my coaching and speaking. I did that work around letting go of identity, which made that transition for me a lot smoother. Of course, there's some grief and loss around having stepped away. I'd done, I'd worked really hard as a single mom to become a psychologist. And I really loved being in that industry and working with my clients, but that identity work was important. And as you were speaking, it made me think about people who see themselves as. So and so's wife or so and so's husband or I'm such and such's mother or parent and have these very narrow focus of what what your role is in life and what I would say is Some of the work that I think is really helpful as well is seeing how multifaceted you are And how many identities you actually hold in the world? because then Say you're married and your partner dies, then you haven't lost your identity. If the only identity you held on to was I am his wife or her wife. I think that's an important one as well, which again can give us somewhere to turn to. I'm also these things, so I can grieve this, and I can grieve this person, and I can grieve this part of my identity. And I've got all this to look to as well. Yeah, that's a, that's a great way to view it. And another way in which I found my way to move forward, you know, and by no means did this happen overnight. Like I think I worked on all of this for quite a few years during the process and something that was key when I did a 16 week rehab program at Victorian Rehab Centre and where they Really bring you back to basics and the basics of you know, any human is really what are your values? You know, what do you value in life? And I do feel like I've kind of been completely broken down and then had to be put back together again. And so starting at my values was a great place and I've spoken about this a bit because My values were so strong and I aligned myself with them at the gardens and that was the work that satisfied my values there. So I knew that whatever I had to do moving forward had to be complimentary and accommodate my and be flexible with my physical needs and managing my chronic pain, but it had to really tick my boxes on my values. Absolutely. And I found that that work was Unbelievable, because you really do work out, you know, what matters. Absolutely, and they're your signposts for life, right? I did a lot of work around that in my work as a psychologist, and I've absolutely brought that into the work I do in coaching. I run a group coaching program for women business owners, and a part of that, we talk about, one of the modules in that is all around values, because it really does bring you home to yourself, and it gives you those signposts. So then when you're making decisions, you've got something to come back to that ear of like, okay, what is important and meaningful to me? And how does this thing align with. What is important and meaningful to me and therefore do I want to say yes or no to it? Yeah, it really does. Look, I think that there's just so many gold nuggets that you've been able to share today, Dr. Hayley. Is there anything else that you'd like to share about the work that you do and you know, just supporting people that might find themselves grieving, you know, really in any, any form? I think the first thing I would say is Let's all just be a bit kind to each other and to ourselves.'cause the world absolutely needs that right now. yeah. Whether you're grieving or not, you know, we, we never know what people are going through and people could be grieving and in workplaces, and if you are a business owner and you have staff, I think you know, that flow of compassion to others is a really important one, because being sensitive to the suffering of the people that work for you or with you is really, really important. And, you know, that could be a whole other episode, couldn't it? Talking about those sort of things. But I think just being aware that we don't always know what's going on for people, go gently with yourself, go gently with other people. And honestly, I can't, I can't speak highly enough about, I am, you know, I'm so passionate about compassion because I know the difference that it has made, not only in my life. Personally, professionally, but in the life of so many of my clients, you know, seeing the difference in somebody when they start to bring this into their life is fantastic. And seeing the difference, the way we can do things differently in our business when we have this lens is really helpful as well. It's just been an absolute pleasure talking to you. And I think the work that you're doing is so valuable and so needed. And I hope this has helped people think about. you know, having these conversations with loved ones or work colleagues or whoever it might need to be. And that we can do things today that will help prevent suffering in the future. That's a beautiful way to end. Thank you so much for being with us today, Dr. Hayley. My absolute pleasure. Thank you.