Embracing Mortality: Hayley West on Art, Death, and Community

What happens when you mix art, death, and a whole lot of creativity? You get Hayley West – a multi-talented artist, librarian, death literacy advocate, and aspiring doom metal vocalist. In this episode, Hayley takes us on a journey through her fascinating life, where death isn’t just a topic—it’s a muse. 

From interactive art installations to hosting a radio show called Dead Air, Hayley’s work challenges us to think differently about mortality and how we engage with it. Whether you’re curious about natural burials, death cafes, or just want to hear a wild story about a stolen hearse, this episode is packed with insights and inspiration.

Hayley West is a true multi-potentialite. She’s an artist, a librarian, a death literacy advocate, a radio presenter, and even an aspiring doom metal vocalist. But what ties all these roles together is her deep connection to death—not as something morbid, but as a natural part of life that deserves attention, creativity, and conversation. 

In this episode, Hayley shares how her personal experiences with loss shaped her art practice, leading her to create thought-provoking installations like her cooling bed performances and her grotto made from artificial flowers collected from cemeteries.

We also dive into her advocacy work, including her involvement with the Natural Death Advocacy Network (NDAN) and her role in promoting death literacy. Hayley’s passion for breaking down taboos around death is infectious, and her stories—like the time a hearse was stolen with a coffin inside—are as entertaining as they are enlightening. 

Plus, she gives us a peek into her radio show, Dead Air, where she explores all things death-related, from natural burials to necrophilia (yes, really!).

Key points from our discussion:

• Art and Death: Hayley’s art practice is deeply intertwined with themes of death, grief, and memory. From creating interactive installations to performance pieces like lying on a cooling bed, her work invites people to confront their own mortality in unexpected ways.
• Death Cafes: Hayley shares how death cafes—a global movement where people gather to talk openly about death—changed her perspective and helped her feel less alone in her experiences with loss.
• Natural Death Advocacy: As a member of the Natural Death Advocacy Network, Hayley is passionate about environmentally friendly death pra

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Transcript

0:02

My family was always death denial family. Like, when my three year old sister died, her photograph was taken out of the house and she was never spoken about again. And I had a young uncle who died in a drink driving accident when he was 21. And that, too, was too devastating for anybody to come to terms with, so didn't talk about him. And then I had a grandparent who died suddenly when I was in my teens as well. And then I had a friend who died by suicide when I was in high school. And, you know, death has just followed me basically all through my life. A podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life. Because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared. Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations and recognises their connection to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their Elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. Today I'm speaking with Hayley West. Hayley West describes herself on her LinkedIn bio. It's very intriguing. As a multi potentialite, I lead a diverse life embracing roles as a librarian, artist, deaf literacy advocate, radio presenter, student, and parent. I am also aspiring to be a doom metal vocalist to the mix. I love that intro. I have never seen such a good intro on a LinkedIn bio. Thank you for being with us, Hayley. No problem. Thanks for finding that little snippet. Now tell me, of all of the hats that you seem to describe and wear in that particular bio, I have heard you speak about your arts practice and I am fascinated by the different projects that you've done over time. So tell me what attracted you to death? What led you to be an artist? Tell me how it all started, Hayley. Well, I've been creative my whole life, I guess. And I did study formally at RMIT. I studied sculpture. And I guess, It started there really in that formal training at a university where we didn't have the luxury of a lot of open space and separate studio spaces. It was like we were in a classroom together. Like 20 of us in a room in the middle of Melbourne CBD. And so we had to open plan before it became a, yeah, that's right. You know, when we looked at VCA over on the other side, you know, in South Melbourne, the kind of St Kilda area, they had beautiful grounds and, you know, nice. It's individual studios and, you know, we're always very jealous of that, but it really made us think a little bit more conceptually about the work that we were creating and the engagement that we had with each other was very close contact. But when we had to present work, it was like on the rooftop in the bathroom, you know, in kilns or around pillars, or we had to. Really kind of think outside the square when we were presenting and it really made a lot of our practices become quite interesting. And I guess death had kind of already started appearing in my work because at. That point as well, Dad had died, which was my first, well, I'd had quite a few deaths before that, but that was a really significant death for me in 1995. And that was around the time, yeah, just, I think just before I started at RMIT. So, I started noticing that The theme of death was kind of creeping in, although there was a theme of love and sex as well. So there was kind of all, you know, like a bit of taboo things going on, you know, and people weren't really talking about death a lot back in the nineties. And so. So, I guess from that point, that was where I started to really think about art as not so much, even though I was studying sculpture, not so much about an object making path I was taking. It was, it really was something, you know, I was creating works that were ephemeral or interactive, or it had the option for people to interact with it, or, you know. contribute to it as well. You know, one of the works that I did, I had a really dodgy job when I was working, when I was studying, I was working for a pre internet for a dating agency. Oh, wow. It was fascinating. And there was a variety of jobs I had to do. I won't go into them all, but one of them involved pre recording messages and leaving messages for men who were interested in particular women and in my case, I was a different person in each state of Australia. It was very dodgy, but there was one person who kept calling me and singing to me and leaving singing messages. And so I turned it into an artwork. So I recorded myself. Singing the same songs into a phone and then I merged them together like we were singing duets. Oh my goodness. Yeah, that was one of my graduating artworks. And so people would come into the space and they'd have to lift up. the telephone, like an old school telephone and call a particular number and then they would hear our duets. Yeah, and I did end up trying to meet him. Oh wow, that is, that is so cool. Did you? No, he never turned up. I took another like fellow art student under the clocks, Flinders Street Station. How very traditional of you. Yeah, and he was going to be wearing a particular, you know, I can't remember, probably a flanny, a blue flanny or something, you know, it was grunge time. And I took a friend to, to, to, to, take photographs of, you know, people that he could see and me for a bit of protection as well. But yeah, he never turned up or he did and he saw me and, and chickened out. Who knows? Anyway, so I've kind of, yeah, I've been interested in. Artworks that are, you know, have that interactive kind of quality, I guess, that's where it started. And one of the artworks that is very vividly in my head was when you presented the one where you involved your daughter. Ah, the video work. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, so I've done a couple of little video works with her before. When I was living in the Blue Mountains, I lived in Darwin for eight years. And then we decided to move to the Blue Mountains, and I've always. Really loved grotto, the religious grotto spaces, you know, devotional grottos around the world, there's particularly in Catholic countries. Anyway, in the Blue Mountains. Yeah, they're all over Italy. Yes, yes. In the Blue Mountains, there, there's some really strange, kooky ones like, you know, that were built. post war by ex servicemen coming back from the war and the council or whoever at the time decided that they wanted to build these picnic huts, but they're really ugly. You know, they're concrete grottos and they're just like picnic huts basically, but they kind of have a fake. kind of rock formation, you know, around them. And I just loved them. I thought they were so great. And I started up a blog actually, Blue Mountains Grotto Love. Anyway, when we left Darwin, I really missed Darwin and I found the Blue Mountains quite hard. A whole nother set of new deaths happened, and the family was struggling a little bit with that. And also we were struggling to find work, an extended family were struggling to find work as well. And so I had this kind of real longing for Darwin, and I didn't know anyone really in New South Wales. So it was, I found it difficult to make friends. I had a small child who I was pretty much looking after myself at the time. And so. I just came up with this idea. I wanted to do an artwork in the grottoes, and I kind of roped Ramona, my daughter, into a couple of other artworks that I'd done with her. And I just had this vision of wrapping her in all the Indonesian. Sorongs and different longies from our travels around Southeast Asia, because, you know, I just thought, I think I was thinking about shrouds and how they're usually white sheets, but I had these sorongs I kept hanging onto even though I was living in a really cold climate. And so, Yeah, it was quite interesting because I was lying down on the table in the grotto and I had a couple of friends who were videoing and I had my stepdaughter, Asha, also kind of helping with Ramona. I didn't really have an idea in mind. I just knew that she was going to wrap me in sarongs, but what I didn't realize was just that situation where you're actually don't have any control over what happens. And she was only three at the time, three or four. And so Asha was directing her to wrap me and I was lying very still. Like I was. Pretending to be dead and she, you know, move a little chair around and kind of keep wrapping me. And I had to kind of give up the artistic control and also it was getting videoed as well. So I didn't know what they were doing and they didn't really have any direction either. And the grotto was at the side of a big lake too. So they actually got into the lake at one point and did a far away shot as well. And so it became this. Really interesting work for me about the connection between mother and daughter, you know, kind of talking to children as well about death and how at a certain age, they start to question death and their own mortality. And, you know, my mother had died. when I was in Darwin as well. I think she died in 2007. And yeah, so it became a real artwork about mother and daughter and kind of disengaging yourself from your child, you know, at a certain age where they start to not need you as much. And so it was a real kind of grief piece as well. And then at the end, you know, I'd collected all the, it was a 30 year cycle of cicadas. Coming to the Blue Mountains and it was like a mass exoskeleton like party on the streets. They were everywhere. So I collected hundreds and hundreds of them. Anyway, Ramona at the end of the video is kind of throwing them into the water. You know, so it's this kind of metamorphosis, kind of symbolism as well. Oh wow, that's really beautiful. Yeah, so that was a really great work to make, and just the result of it, of like, yeah, watching it and seeing it for the first time and working with the film. Producers who edited it for me too, thank goodness. And just having, it was very, you know, not much sound to it. There's a bit of bird sound, I think. But that was quite profound, that work. I loved it. I kept thinking I'd like to do more works with her as she got older, you know. And, but the kind of, you know, life gets in the way. That's very true. And how old is she now? 14. Okay, so you're not, you're not quite at that stage where she's starting to separate, but not fully there yet. Yeah, she's pretty independent. I mean, we are now in Castle Main, you know, the kids are off doing all, you know, their own thing really. And it's such a small town. I mean, my ex husband and I, we separated after we got to Castle Main because Castle Main's such a great place. It's like, it's, it's beautiful visually. I think after living in Darwin and living in the Blue Mountains, they were quite similar environmentally, even though they're the complete opposite extreme weather, but I felt very claustrophobic. Like Darwin towards the end was, you know, the tropics and, you know, you couldn't breathe. You had this amount of. You know, oxygen sometimes in October, this time of year, where it's the build up after the dry and before the wet and then we moved to the Blue Mountains and it was like mist was in front of you, like a meter in front and you couldn't see through it. And it was like this really dense environments I'd been living in for over 10 years and so the next place. We moved to was my suggestion was Castle Mane because I had, I still have a brother who's living and he lives in Melbourne and I was like, let's move to Castle Mane. I just want to see through the gum trees. Like, I, I can't, I need space, like. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, because it is, it's really, really dense. I so understand what you're talking about, because I remember we were in, in Darwin July last year, and I was just so thankful that we weren't there in that kind of period now, in this build up to the wet again, because I cannot stand humidity. And the density of the bush around the Blue Mountains, it is dense, isn't it? Like, it's really dense. People get lost in there, like. Three steps in. Yeah, yeah. So, tell me more about your arts practice because I, I really remember the vivid color and the contrast of, of the beautiful, like, saris and sarongs that you were using in that particular one. But that's not the only one where you've used a lot of color as well, is it? Like, I love the structure that you made out of everyday materials found in cemeteries, That was just amazing. Can you tell us a little bit about that? That's actually a nice segue from that video work, because I came back to the grotto kind of structure. So when I was, well, that was a few years after I'd moved here, I had this idea. Well, I joined a cemetery trust. That was the other thing I did. I joined a cemetery trust here in Kesselmane, which I was on for five years and. It's, there's a lot of picking up of artificial flowers that, you know, you either put them back if you know where they've come from on a grave, but there's a stack that just gets blown off into the bush. And so I spent a period of eight months like going around to different cemeteries and cleaning up the bush. on the outskirts of the bush cemeteries. So I collected all these artificial flowers that were once, you know, a memorial for someone, but now I decided to make them into a collective memorial for all those people that kind of had been part of every single flower, like that somebody had laid on their grave. You know, I created this grotto structure where you, Out of the artificial flowers, so you could actually get inside it and you know, it has an opening at the front and I first showed it in Ballarat as part of a festival there and it stunk a little bit actually, like, because a lot of those flowers were really manky. So, I ended up going to see a witch in Kangaroo Flat. There's a witch who's up there. There's a lot of witchy kind of business that goes on around central Victoria. There's Mount Franklin as well. Leaningrook, yeah. The pagans go up there and do various things on top of the mountain. But yeah, so I went and saw this witch in Kangaroo flat and I said, people are going to go into this memorial space and, you know, I told her what it was, uh, what it was made up of and she said, Oh, I need to make something that kind of is. You know, doesn't encourage any bad juju. So she created this scent for me that I put all over it, which was nice, except when I accidentally, um, spilt it in my glove box and like for the next five years, I can smell it. Oh, wow. It's a really beautiful work. It's had a couple of visits to art parties that are, there used to be some art parties here called Shavu and it was part of, people have performed. Inside it, you know, it only fits one person or two people, but it's also been on the island for the Castlemaine State Festival, the island at our botanical gardens here. Which was interesting because you couldn't actually get to it, but you could see it from afar. So it was kind of like this curious, what, what the hell is that doing there on an island? So I kind of liked that idea that you actually couldn't interact with it as well. Yeah, yeah. Because so much of your work does involve that interaction. And as you mentioned as well, colour, like, I don't know how that kind of came into it because I wear black mainly. I think it's like I express myself through my artwork, but. Yeah, like, yeah, I do love seeing people interact with artwork, even when I've made static objects, there's still like an element of touch or, you know, like I had an ongoing project for a while. That was collecting handmade vessels, ceramic vessels from op shops, you know, that somebody had hand built. A lot of the time it's kids or somebody's pottery lesson or whatever ends up in the op shop. So I collected them and then I. Yeah. Created ceramic lids for them and turned them into cremation urns. And so they had a new life again. It was like I was kind of saving them from, from being discarded by whoever, family members. Yeah. And I did one exhibition with them, which had a whole lot of death iconography from the Egyptian symbolism, the book of the dead. Yeah. Yeah, and I did a few commissions as well for other people's pets and somebody came to me once with two vessels that they'd found that they really liked and said, look, we found matching ones for our matching dogs that died. So I created like a beautiful lids. So even though they're kind of static objects, like they're still have ashes inside them and they, you know, you still take the lid off and you interact. And I guess other works I've done for my masters. So when I was in the blue mountains and I was having a pretty terrible time, I decided I would. Um, actually delve deeper into the whole death industry and, Oh, well, the idea was actually to do my master's in visual arts because I couldn't find a job. And then I ended up getting an Australian postgraduate scholarship, which fed the family, you know, for two years. So that was awesome. And I still wanted to maintain a connection to Darwin as well, so I did it through Charles Darwin University. But yeah, and then I decided at that point, it's like, I'm going to really like delve deeply into the whole death industry because I've noticed that it's kind of been appearing in my artwork for a while. And yeah, so I started researching. Because it was a master's by research as well. I started researching and that's where I came across death cafe And what a death cafe was and kind of became quite intrigued about that Because my family was always death denial family like nobody ever talked about death. Oh, really? Yeah, like when my three year old sister died her photograph was taken out of the house and she was never spoken about again Wow, and how old were you when that happened? Six. Wow. Yeah. So you just like lost your sister and she was completely removed from existence. Yep. Oh, wow. Yeah. There's so many stories like through my life of coming to the realization of certain things that happened during my lifetime at later stages, you know, like I kind of. Blocked that out because the family had blocked it out, I guess. And, you know, I had a young uncle who just immigrated to Australia and he died in a drink driving accident when he was 21. So that was the next death. And that too was like too devastating for anybody to come to terms with. So didn't talk about him. Peter. And then I had a grandparent who died suddenly when I was in my teens as well, and nobody quite knew what happened. What I talked about, you know, it just kept going. And I had a friend who died by suicide when I was in high school and, you know, death has just followed me basically. all through my life, I guess. So when I came across Death Cafe, I was like, oh my god, people want to talk about this? Like, this is insane. Like, what are you going to talk about? Oh my god, I've got to go. So. And maybe if you can explain for those of us who are not aware of Death Cafes, what it is, how it started. What the fascination is, what you get to do with them, that would be great. Death Cafe started in the UK and it was created from a model that was already existing in Switzerland at the time. And John Underwood is the founder of Death Cafes. So he created his own version for mainly English speaking countries and Western countries. And he actually died a few years ago, which was interesting with the whole Who was going to take over running the whole shebang. Yeah. So it's, it's really has taken off and I think it was about 10 years ago it started, maybe even more. And so it's, it's hosted in so many countries around the world now, particularly I think, you know, America, England and Australia really are quite, they're quite strong movements and Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, so when I first discovered A Death Café in the Blue Mountains, it led me to Kerry Noonan, who was living in the Blue Mountains at the time, and she's quite an instrumental person in the whole deathy movement, and she would be an excellent person to, to interview. She's still in New South Wales. Yes, she has to be booked in for November. Yeah, oh. Yeah, so she's, she's going to be a guest. Oh great, oh great. Anyway, so I met Kerry, like she was my first kind of real deathie that I met and she was co hosting the Blue Mountains Death Cafes and I remember, like, I can still visualize it when I was sitting there and sitting very quietly, trying to be quiet, and listening to people's stories, and it was just so refreshing for me. Because I was so young, too, when my first parent died, I was in my 20s, that was very unusual, and I didn't have any friends who had gone through that, who was around me at that time, and then even when my second parent died, That was unusual too, you know, I was in my thirties. So for me to find other people just to talk to about anything to do with death was just, it was like a revelation. It really changed a whole lot of things for me and meeting Kerry. And I ended up co hosting the death cafes with Kerry, actually, when I was living there, I think for three. I was there for three years in Blue Mountains. We'll definitely include the links to the Death Cafe on the show notes. And I just, you mentioned that it changed a lot of things for you. What were those things that it changed Hayley? Oh, I guess talking to people about things that had happened to me personally, which I was pretty open about anyway, but I kind of acknowledged, I was starting to acknowledge just how death. Illiterate the communities I was living in were, you know, and people finding it really hard to talk about death and dying. And I think it kind of really not that I ever wanted to get into grief counseling, but it kind of really opened my eyes to the fact that I was not the only one who was really struggling with getting the words together to say the right thing or to, you know, Just be more informed about options. And I think, you know, while I was there too, my brother in law died by suicide and I organized his funeral when I was there. And, you know, by that stage I had my favorite funeral director, who I befriended, Amy, Yeah, lovely. Yeah, Western Sydney, I think she is. And Victoria Spence, I knew from my art circles, So, I got her involved, because it was quite a traumatic death as well. And there was children involved and not, not dead, but you know, he had small kids, you know. And we had that situation where it was like. Like, we never talked to Seth about what he wanted. He had tried, tried to kill himself a number of times, but nobody had ever asked him if he actually went through with it. Does he want to be cremated or buried? Because it was kind of also that it's, that's a difficult conversation because you don't want to talk about death with somebody who attempts suicide all the time, but you probably do. Like. You know, that's a whole nother space to talk about because yeah, there's a whole stack of different things going on there. Yeah, I think I just, and because I was semi part of that community and I, you know, we had his funeral in the mechanics hall. We didn't have it in a church. We knew that he wanted to be buried, but we didn't know where, and we tried to find him a burial spot in Sydney, which was absolutely impossible. So, you know, it was. Going through all those hoops and we had to deal with the coroner for quite a long time as well because he couldn't be identified for a while. All those kind of different things that happened. I think from being in a death cafe, I was A little bit more prepared for things to not go smoothly or to go awry, but that's okay. Like I'm working it out as I go along, at least I'm talking about it, you know, and at least I'm trying to help the family and yeah, that death was quite, quite instrumental as well because then, which is a whole nother story where he got. His body got stolen from the back of the hearse. Well, the car got, the hearse got taken away and he was in the back of it. Oh, you're kidding. That's a whole nother story as well. Wow. That's a strange thing. How does that even happen? It was very random. It was very rare. Do you want me to tell you it's a short version? Of course, you can't just say all of that and then not follow through with the story, Hayley. Come on. It's such a strange story, but it ends well. I'll just say that. So we arrived in the morning and met the funeral directors there and just to get the body into the space, we were going to go away for a couple of hours and come back. So, the hearse backed up, and the two pallbearers were there, and they were just coming out of the hearse to open up the back and get the trolley out to put the coffin on. And at that second, somebody jumped out of the bushes, jumped into the hearse, with the keys were still in the ignition as well. They'll never do that again. This person drove off with Seth in the coffin in the back of the hearse, and So literally, someone, someone literally stole the hearse. Yes, and we were all, there was only a few of us there. There was, you know, three people from the funeral home, my husband at the time, and I, and Ramona, my daughter. And the florist was just arriving, and the flowers, and she's like, what's happened? And we're like, it's gone that way. And she's like, it's okay, it's a dead end that way. And so I'm calling, yeah, I'm calling the cops. Yeah, I'm calling the cops. And I'm like, I couldn't get the words out. I'm like, somebody's stolen the, the hearse and no, somebody's stolen the hearse and Seth. And they're like, what? He's killed him? And I'm like, no, he's already dead. Something like that. Oh, Hayley. That is so unfortunate. I know. And, but meanwhile, The funeral director was standing there. Tears down the, you know, almost. Oh my God, this has never happened to me before. And meanwhile, Tobias, my husband, had driven off after, after the hearse. And in my head, cause I saw, I saw the person briefly and it looked like a younger person. And in my head I was thinking, Oh my God, like, is this person on ice? Is Tobias going to get stabbed? Is there going to be another one? Death on our hands! Like, what's gonna happen? Anyway, so it was a dead end. Luckily, he did go that way and not the Greater Western Highway, because he could have gone that way. Yeah, wow. But he went the other way. And at the end of the street was Uh, a boys school, and they were all out playing rugby, and this nurse had kind of tried to get onto the oval, but not quite got there, you know, and stalled, and Tobias jumped out of his car and opened the door and went, what the hell are you doing? And this person just looked up at him and said, I don't know where I am. And it turned out that the cops arrived pretty quickly. It turned out that this person was quite young in his thirties, but he had dementia and he just moved two days before into a facility that was really quite close to where we were living. And he escaped. And nobody could find him, and he'd been living in the bushes, like he got quite far. We were down in Wentworth Falls and he'd walked quite far, but he just saw an opportunity for a car. He saw, must have seen the keys and just got in it and ran off. So, anyway, the police are like, do you want to make charges? And we're like, no, if he's okay, then, you know, and everything's okay. And, you know, brought Seth, put him in the, uh, we went home and had a drink, you know, and then I was like, can I please put this on Facebook? Just so weird. You couldn't have written a script like that. Really? I don't kind of remember what I posted, but my friend in Darwin worked for the ABC. And so he rang me and went, can I do a story? And I'm like, okay, but don't name any names. Like if the funeral directors or anything. Oh yeah. That would have been very attractive for them. Yeah. Yeah. So we spent like that night, like, you know, and the funeral was fine. It all went well. And, and then later on that night I spent like. Saving screen grabs of all the, it went viral across all the, you know, different newspapers across the world. And I was taking photographs, screenshots of all the different images that people were using, like in Ghana, they had an image of a gold gilded coffin. You know, going into the hearse and then in India there was like a hearse in front of a big ship at the port and the story got a little bit skewed. Wow, they got really creative, didn't they? Yes. Yes. Have you ever done an art piece on that story, Hayley? I haven't. And I think the reason is because it's not, now that I'm separated, well, you know, I'm no longer with my husband, it's his family and I kind of feel like it's his story in a way. He's Happy for me to relay the story, but I kind of think, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll just leave it as that. And yeah. Yeah, going viral was good enough. Oh yeah. And it was like some strange joke, you know, that Seth had pulled, you know, for us all. That was what we were all talking about at the funeral. It was like, did he do this? Did he set this up? That's amazing. Now, we know that art can be a really good way in which to actually challenge people's thoughts and also tackle, you know, difficult subjects and We know that your focus has certainly moved to death as time has gone on. So, tell me, what sort of changes have you seen when people interact with your installations? Or, have you seen any sort of behaviour change? Tell me a little bit about that around your work. I have, definitely. And I think because I've been in this community I've been here in Castlemaine for nearly nine years now, it's, you know, it's only nine or 10, 000 people here. So I feel like over that period of time, like people have gotten used to me being the kind of deathy person that they can stop in the street and ask a question. As far as artwork goes, I think, I mean, there's a whole bunch of other artists who work with the theme of death too, and it's always been there in, you know, since time started, hasn't it? Like, when I first moved to Kessel Main, I had a studio at The Mill, which is a really highly visited tourist precinct. In Castlemaine. So it's full of makers and artisans and there's a whole, you know, people like the ice creamery makes their own ice cream and sells the ice cream. The Austrian cafe makes their own coffee, sells coffee. So. There's a whole bunch of artists too who sell wares. I don't know what the hell I was selling, but I was selling me and a few other artworks. So I had it set up as a studio. I had other people's artworks actually in there. And the idea was, I think I was working on a lot of my ceramics work at the time. And so I had my door open on the weekends and people could just walk in and see me working on artworks and, but as soon as they walked into the space, straight away you'd see, well, a wicker coffin in the space, which was, you know, something that just people hadn't really seen. That's more in the news now than ever, more in the media. Or as an option, but at that point it was, I was pretty new and I'd borrowed it off one of the funeral homes to have in there and I also had one of my artworks, which was, I did a residency in Senegal for a few months and I had, I did a whole photographic Series about mainly dead things that I've come across and there was this huge billboard behind me that was a dead dolphin Anyway, so people would walk in tourists particularly on the weekend and go Like are they too far in to walk back out again They kind of committed, you know, okay. Hi This is the ice creamery I thought I was walking Yeah, exactly So I think I, I could kind of make people feel comfortable and welcome pretty quickly. And I mean, they, you know, you'd lock eyes with somebody who's just sitting there as well. So you've walked into the space, but sometimes I did get families who came in with young children and they, they would, I'd say about half and half when I, when I first opened, some people would just walk straight out again. And I just, Didn't want their kids to see anything, like I had skulls and, Oh, you know, and a rack of Halloween outfits as well. But yeah, I think it might've been a little bit too confrontational for two, for some people. And I get that cause it's, you know, you're there for the day or the weekend. You don't want to talk to your kids about death. Fair enough. But a lot of the times I'd be doing projects in there where people could interact with me too. Like I did a weaving project. And it was about, or actually about the children who had drowned during the gold rush in the botanical gardens, which is across the road. So I'd, you know, people would sit down with me and weave and I'd tell them about a little bit of that history. And the most successful project I did in there with engaging particularly children though was when kids walked in, I gave them a big black marker pen and I got them to write on the concrete. Floor and the, and it was for adults too, of course, but it was like, write down a name of somebody who's died that you, you know, whether it be a grandparent or a pet, or if somebody, you know, if somebody hasn't died, who's close to you, there might be, you know, I had David Bowie written down a few times. So, you know, there was options. Yeah, I really. Found that was a fantastic way to engage kids and parents with their children too, because then they'd have that conversation like, Oh, well, should we write down, you know, Nana, Nana's name down or, and kids just being allowed to use a big black marker pen. And right on the ground, they just totally got into it and, you know, of course, because my daughter would always be doing it as well and she'd think about some other goldfish that we had that she could write, you know, every time she came in, but she'd be drawing pictures. Because anyone who has had goldfish knows you'll have a long list of names. Yeah, exactly. There was some, yeah, random names in there, but yeah, so it was, it, uh, it became this collective memorial, you know, and it was really beautiful. I loved it and it filled up. I was only there for eight months because the council decided to up the rates 300 percent or something because it was becoming such a money making thing for all the artists that they thought they'd kind of make some money. So, you know, as an advocate. It was really an advocacy space more than anything. It wasn't really a financially, you know, viable thing for me to have, but yeah, that, that project was really special. And when the real estate agent made me paint over it, when I moved out, I was like, I got some great photos though, but yeah, it was really, that was fantastic. I loved that work. So Hayley, you've, you've actually positioned yourself in, in a lot of spaces in relation to advocacy and you're a member of a few different organizations. So, Australian Home Funeral Alliance. Yeah, I've written the Victorian section for their website, but I'm not a member yet. And then, and then the Natural Death Advocacy Network. Yes. You're a member of that. I'm on the committee. So tell me a little bit about, you know, why is it important to you and what motivates you to be part of this and also you host a program called Dead Air and that's actually on the local radio station up there every Monday is it? Yep. Yeah, so what makes you, you know, taken you from, you know, that those times up in the Blue Mountains where you met You know, Kerry and you started sort of being involved in the death cafes to where you are now where you are actually very much at the forefront of changing the face and talking about death literacy in Australia. I think another ingredient in my journey into this. area of advocacy is being a librarian too. So when I moved to Kessel, Maine, I ended up getting a job at the local library. And I think that became a space as well for talking to people. Like I'm a front of house kind of a person. So that kind of inspired me. As well to kind of get the message out to the community, because that was an ideal space as well as the studio to meet people and to. Become part of the community and engage, you know, you've got a captive audience there. They've come to you again, you know. Yeah, so I guess that would have been instrumental as well in me deciding to be more active. In various groups that were established because I needed that information to, to impart on my community. So I became quite interested in environmentally friendly ways to dispose of your body. And I decided to do. A few talks in the different libraries in the regional areas, because Castle Main Library is also part of the Goldfields Libraries, and that extends down to Gisborne and way up to Bort and Pyramid Hill in the regions, which are a bit more remote. So. I did a few presentations one year for Dying to No Day and they were received so well. I talked about alkaline hydrolysis, water cremation, natural organic reduction, human composting and natural burial. And so I'd been a member of the Natural Death Advocacy Network when it started. It was a bit silent for a little bit and then it kind of pepped up. And when it pepped up I decided that I'd jump on board and get onto the committee and learn. It's all about learning more and also, you know, finding people with the same kind of ethos as yourself. And when you're kind of just a one woman person, you know, in your community and sure there's people that You can talk to about death, but for all that really juicy information, you really need to have those peers that you can rely on and talk to about things that are happening. And I guess meeting Beck Lyons is been amazing because she's just a wealth of information and she's so personable. And so she's part of the chair of the. Natural Death Advocacy Network. It's a way for me to stay on top of what's happening around, particularly Australia. And so that I can keep up to date. Like I love going to workshops and seminars and festivals all to do with death. I try and do all that kind of stuff all the time. And I'm always putting myself in Publications or, you know, trying to get the word out in different ways as well. And I guess radio became one of those ways, too. One of the things that you do when you move to Castle Mane is you realize that it's, I mean, I think most people move here because it's a really creative town and it has a really fantastic live music scene and a lot of venues and. Yeah, it's just pumping. It reminded me a lot of Darwin, actually, as soon as I moved here, I was like, Oh, I found my home. But one of the things that happens is you, you end up listening to main FM, which is our community radio station. And I, I mean, I always tend to do that wherever I live anyway. I kind of try and tune in to what's happening locally, but main FM is actually like, it has a great subscriber ship and membership and people are really invested in it. And that's what I. What I really love about this town as well is that people are really invested in the town, which I didn't find in the Blue Mountains at all. I think that, you know, for me, it felt like everybody was focused on Sydney and all the interesting people were doing things in Sydney, whereas in Castle, Maine. It's like, we don't feel the need to go to Melbourne to do that. We've got everything happening here. Like, it's really hard to get to Melbourne because there's so much happening. Yep, that is very true. So, Main. fm has become like this, another community to be involved in. And there's, you know, there's over 70 shows on the grid. And that can have one or two people in it. So it's really active. And there's all sorts of things from music to talk shows. So when my space closed down at the mill, I was like, how am I going to get that feeling again of like engaging with people and really thinking about my practice as a socially engaged practice? Like, how am I going to do that? I don't have time to be making, making work, you know, cause I'm, I have to work full time. I'm solo parenting, you know, and on these committees. It's like, what am I going to do? So I already had a few friends that were, and I'd already done a few interviews with other friends on main. fm about. My practice or whatever death related stuff and I thought, Oh, maybe I need to have a show or just about death and dying. And I put it to the program manager and to the committee and they're like, heck yes, do it. So even though it feels like, you know, it's, it's live every Monday, cause I've just gone back. I had a bit of a break cause of my work commitments, but it's a little bit different cause it's one way. So I'm talking to. You know, people out there in the ether, whether they're listening to it streaming or listening live on their wireless, it still feels like I'm engaging because I also edit it and upload it later so that people like the millennials can listen to it later, or people that can't listen to it on a Monday morning, like a podcast. So it feels like it was, it's one way. But I do get a lot of texts in, and I get a lot of feedback through social media that people are listening. I get a lot of people contacting me with suggestions for interviews or for articles, because one of the things I love doing on it is actually reading articles on it, because it's like reading to adults, like who does, who, who gets to listen to that, you know, like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when I was working in the. Men's prison here. We've got three prisons in Castle Main. So that's a big implore. But I was working in the medium security prison for a little bit. And I know that some of the prisoners were listening to Main FM. They tuned in. There was a, there wasn't many locals who were in there, but they'd kind of come across Main FM because yeah, they, They're not allowed internet, so they can't listen to streaming. So it's live radio for them. And so it means it's accessible. Live radio is accessible to a whole bunch of people that you might not engage with. Like there's people who are homeless, who are living in cars. They can tune into a radio station. There's, you know, people who have different. Disabilities, you know, who might not have access to print, you know, they can't read media and the prisoners, like, there's a whole bunch of people that you kind of don't, don't think about when, if, you know, people that don't, can't afford, there's plenty, being a librarian here in Castle, Maine has made me realize that actually our literacy rate is quite Thank you so much. low in this shire. You feel like you're in a little bit of a bubble of all this awesomeness in Castle, Maine, but if you just reach out a little bit further, there's a whole bunch of kids that are missing out on good reading, you know? So, and there's a whole bunch of people that. Can't afford to have internet or can't afford to access that. So, I mean, libraries are really important for that, for them to be able to come in and use free internet or, you know, even just to be around books, you know, so there's a lot of great things about live radio and I love the idea that somebody, yeah, can just tune in and unexpectedly hear me talking about. I don't know, anything like, yeah, natural burial or necrophilia, like, you know, it kind of You certainly don't get that on mainstream radio, Hayley. Yeah, I did a Valentine's special on it on New Year. Yes, you did. Now Um, there is another artwork that when I think of your oeuvre of work that you've got, and that is really the, the role of ritual that plays quite a central sort of aspect to two of your, say they're performance pieces that where you, and the ones that I'm thinking of are the ones where you use the cooling bed. Um, I find that fascinating. So if you could explain that to our audience, that would be wonderful. Yeah, so a couple of times I've hired a cooling bed off Death Dwellers. Cooling beds are a contraption that you put underneath, like a big bit of metal. That's hooked up to a generator that freezes, that you put under a dead body to slow down decomposition. And the reason that you would do that is if you're waiting for family to arrive because they want to spend time with the person who's died. Or it's really, really hot day. And, you know, you do, because you can have your person at home for as long as you like in Victoria. It's usually around average of three days that people have had enough. But yeah, so there's other ways that you can, I mean, you can just use ice as well. Somebody can run down the road and grab bags of ice. I actually really love the mechanics of this instrument and Yeah, so I've hired it a couple of times, and my favorite time that I used it in a performance was when at Bendigo Art Gallery there was a beautiful exhibition called Gothic Beauty, I think it was called. And they built me a, Little room in the middle of the gallery that was completely dark and black and I set up the cooling bed on a bed and I had a black quilt over the top of it and I actually dressed up in my Victorian morning gear as well And I didn't have times or anything that people could come in I just kind of winged it again like I normally do what people would do is come in and I Just say welcome, you can lie down on the bed. What I want you to do, I had a script that I read, it was very short, but it was like, I wanted them to consider their own mortality and really think about that when they're lying down on this cold plate. Because this is, Something that you'll never get to experience like when you're dead. Yeah, I kind of explained briefly what it was and you won't experience this when you're dead. And it's something you possibly, this is the only time you'll experience it when you're alive as well. So here's a really great kind of liminal space for you to really consider your own mortality and your death and just lie as long as you like. And listen to me read murder ballads. So I had a whole list of songs that I'd printed out, and I just read them, because I obviously like reading to adults. But, um. I am picking up on that theme, yep. Yeah, and they could lie as long as they liked. It was actually quite. time of year, I think, as well. Oh, no, that was another time. I did it in Canberra. But, my God, of 40 degree days, and I could not get people off that bed. Like, I had, like, constant stream of hundreds of people at this festival. Like, like, anyway, that's another story. Yeah, so. Especially in Canberra. Yeah, so. Yeah, it was, it was really, it was a quite an intimate space, and it was very simple. Yeah, and I just kept going, like, I think I did it for like, I don't know, four hours or something non stop. And tell me, how did people react, Hayley, when they lay down? Like what, what were the sort of things that you were seeing in people and, and what they were experiencing? Most people did what they were told. So, it's funny, because it's kind of. Yeah, you're telling somebody to do, like, lie in a very vulnerable position, I guess, and they don't know what exactly I'm going to do. But it's in an art gallery. That's the other thing that's different. So, people come to a gallery and they know they're going to engage with art. It's very different from when you set up something like that in a motel. So Yeah. Wow. Have you done that before? Yeah. In Canberra. Oh, it was in a motel. It wasn't a motel. Well, it was more like a hotel. It was a hotel, but it was kind of felt like a motel. And that was part of a bigger festival. And what was the difference between the two? Were people more reticent to actually lie down in a motel? Yes, it was on the bed that I was sleeping on at night time, and I'd put it on the bed during the day. That's a little bit too close to your art, isn't it? Yeah, it was like a double, like it was a townhouse kind of hotel. So it was an art festival, but there's a whole stack of all sorts of things happening all the time. And people did engage with it, but also at the same time, it was so busy that I didn't get to talk to everyone. So Yeah. Yeah. I kind of, I didn't really get good feedback from that experience, but I could hear people talking about it when I was walking around the next day, like having experienced it. So as far as I'm concerned, my job is done. Like people are talking about it. They knew what it was for, you know, like real life. But when I was in a gallery setting, I guess. People are more in tune to something peculiar going on, you know, or it's in an art context. It's like, you know, the last work I did for Radical Fields in Glen Lyon this year, Radical Fields is curated by Ryan Kennedy and he lives out there and his friend's property is just this massive paddock. And he got, I think it was six artists to do work in the paddock and it was just for a day event. And so. I dug a grave, and this is kind of a similar work in a way. What I wanted to do, it was called 750mm under, because lots of people know the six feet under kind of concept, but not everybody knows the fact that for a natural burial, you only need that amount of soil above you legally. To, because it's about decomposing quickly and going into the earth and anyway, so I thought hilariously, I rocked up in the morning and going with my shovel because Ryan had said to me, Oh yeah, the soil's great. Like on this side, like where I was on the other side, it's a bit rocky, but you know, You get this far down and it's rock and I was like, Oh my God, what is this artwork going to be for one day? But lucky for me, there was a digger, like a guy, the local guys, who was already helping another artist who was doing soil samples with a borer. Oh wow, you are so lucky. My God. See, this is me winging it all the time. I'm like, I'll come together, no worries. Anyway, James ended up. digging the grave for me. Thank goodness. But that work was fantastic. And I got the best feedback from people and it was unexpected as well. So I got down in it like before everybody came, like I got there quite early and it got dug and. It was beautiful in there, like you laid down, it was cool, it was in summer, the heat of summer, it was cool and it was quiet and all you could hear was the bees slowly going across every now and again. Oh wow. Yeah, it was so beautiful and the amazing, it was like a James Turrell artwork of just blue colour in a rectangle above you. So again, it was kind of like I got people, if they wanted to, to get in. Into the grave and again, consider their own mortality and while they were down there, I would talk to them about natural burial. So it was more of an advocacy kind of role, but it was, yeah, it's, I mean, it's all part of my art practice. I mean, I, I consider the radio show part of my art practice as well. But yeah, so radical fields, Like, yeah, everybody got fantastic, had a fantastic time, in the grave. So, what's next for you, Hayley? Well, I'm doing Radical Fields again, but I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do this time around. I haven't quite thought about it. You know, sort it through, yet. I do have a few ideas. I've got a few ideas for shroud artwork, but I'm just need to, because I like to stay true to my word in a way, it's, I've got some beautiful patterns for shrouds, but I'd like to put my own photography. Onto the shrouds, but I'd like the ink to be kosher, so I'd like the shroud to be an artwork, but also something that somebody could buy to use to be buried in a natural burial site. So I want it to be able to decompose well and not be, you know, a bad ink product. That's you know, I'm not sure like yeah, I've had that idea for a while I've had lots of ideas, but it's like when you work full time I'm kind of yeah, I don't know what I'm doing I've got different ideas, you know Art is kind of the radio show is sustaining me in that creative way for a little bit But I have been talking to some fellow Independent death workers who I'm very good friends with in Melbourne, particularly, and I don't know, I think there's a bit of a critical mass happening at the moment where people in the industry are starting to realise that we are already and can be independent funeral consultants, in a way, like, we don't actually need a physical funeral. If we're talking to families or people about family led funerals and home based care in end of life, you know, all these kinds of things, there might be something that I consider doing and leaving full time work. You know, planning funerals are events. And hopefully, you know, fun events for some of them that are always fun, but you know, I know venues and I know bands and I know a lot of creative people and you know, I know a band called Dead, um, who come from Kessel Maid and friends with them, you know, it's like. I could create a really, or help create a really fantastic funeral for people in the community, but also empower them to do it themselves as well. And I think there's a lot. I think the timing's kind of right. You know, we have two funeral homes here in Castle Main. One of them has just been taken over by a major corporation. So I can now only tell people that one of them is family owned and run. And for the last few years, people have come to me and they don't want those conventional funerals that they go to quite often. So I've been suggesting other funeral places that might be able to help them out. that are further afield. So, a lot of my community are starting to look outside the community, and I think it's the right time for me and for, I mean, we've got a really strong death doula community here in Central Victoria. I think there's a real joy for that compassionate communities model, and I think we're already doing it here. Really quite well, but to kind of link everyone together in the end of life space and the death space, like, I think it's going to be a natural thing for me to do. And I have those fantastic peers in Melbourne too, and fantastic funeral homes outside of Castle Mane will really help me, I think, do that. So, I think that's where I'm. Going to end up, but it's just a matter of like trying to work out financially, you know, how that might happen Well, that sounds like we're definitely going to be watching this space and seeing what that evolved into Haley Yeah, me too. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners? We could listen to Dead Air. We'll be putting a link into Dead Air, don't you worry, so they can certainly tune in and, and certainly to NDAN so they can learn more information too, so. NDAN's like a wealth of information with their resources now, like there's some really good information there. Yeah, there's some, some great information, so we'll definitely include that in the links in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for being with us today Hayley. No worries, it was lovely to speak to you. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, brought to you by Critical Info. If you liked the episode, learnt something new, or were touched by a story you heard, we'd love for you to let us know. Send us an email. Even tell your friends. Subscribe so you don't miss out on new episodes. If you can spare a few moments, please rate and review us as it helps other people to find the show. Are you dying to know more? Stay up to date with. 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