ENCORE: NAIDOC 2024: Celebrating Indigenous Stories and Heritage with Aunty Jill West

In honour of NAIDOC week 2024, the theme:  Keep the Fire Burning! Blak, Loud & Proud honours the enduring strength and vitality of First Nations culture – with fire a symbol of connection to Country, to each other, and to the rich tapestry of traditions that define Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
 
Also, because I simply love what this wonderful woman has to share, we explore the experience and philosophies of Aunty Jill West, a Bunurong and Palawa woman, who generously shares her fascinating life story and the lessons she's learned from dealing with death.

In our chat, Aunty Jill talks about her dual heritage, her father's untimely death at 53, and how it made her reflect on her own mortality. She highlights the importance of understanding and accepting where we come from, and how it shapes our identity. Her father, a man of 'supreme intelligence', had a profound impact on her, and she continues his work, walking next to his footsteps.

Aunty Jill discusses the impact of the 1967 referendum on her family and the Aboriginal community at large. She gets candid about her father's journey to become a teacher, a university lecturer, and a doctor of Indigenous philosophy, despite facing numerous obstacles and systemic discrimination. It's an eye-opening conversation that gives us a glimpse into the resilience and determination of the Aboriginal community.

In today’s episode:

• Aunty Jill discusses the importance of understanding and accepting one’s heritage, highlighting how this acceptance can help alleviate the burden of historical guilt and contribute to personal and community healing.

• We delve into Aunty Jill’s personal journey through grief following the sudden death of her father, exploring how her Aboriginal heritage and customs provided her with the frameworks to cope and find strength.

• The significance of cultural rituals in mourning and remembrance is touched upon, giving us a poignant view of how Indigenous practices can deeply influence the healing process.

Key Points from Our Conversation:

• Heritage and Healing: Aunty Jill emphasises the strength found in accepting and knowing one's heritage, which for her, was key in navigating life’s challenges, particularly in dealing with the death of loved ones.

• Grief as a Path to Healing: She shares her intimate experiences with grief,

Are your affairs in order? Critical Info helps you organise essential documents in just 10 minutes a day. Sign up now for early access! → criticalinfo.com.au/critical-info-platform

Lost a loved one? Our guide walks you through the next steps, from the first hours to the months ahead. Download it here → criticalinfo.com.au/product/my-

Contact Catherine

Business Website: https://dontbecaughtdead.com.au
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100094865491683
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/critical_info_org/
LinkedIn Business Page: : https://www.linkedin.com/company/critical-info
LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherine-ashton-73254528/

Podcast Editor: https://www.livvimusic.com/

Music composer: Ania Reynolds - https://www.aniareynolds.com/

Transcript

Aunty Jill West: 0:01

Non Indigenous people are not the ones that did this. It was the government. Australia has this misconception that we think it's them personally, but it's not. Yes, we were invaded by British, but it's not. The people that are sitting in my training, they come from British heritage. Every time I do a training, we hold my talking stick and I want people to tell me where they're from. The heritage is so important because I say, it's okay to say British and it's okay to say Australian because where you come from is the most important piece of who you are. It doesn't matter about the history. You've always got to be proud because it wasn't you that did this. It's not about guilt or sorry. Because no one learns in that space. I've never judged people. I accept people the way they are. And my dad said, it's not your right to understand, but it is your obligation to accept difference. And he said, had we had the capacity to do that, he believed no weapons of war would have ever been created.

Catherine: 1:02

Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Katherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life. Because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared. Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges the lands of the Kulin nations, and recognises their connection to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. Today, we're speaking with Aunty Gillian Wentz. Uh, I was so fortunate to meet Aunty Gillian at a recent symposium that Open House Melbourne, uh, put on at the Bunurong Memorial Park. And it was a really enlightening experience that I had, uh, and I'm really looking forward to having a chat now. So Aunty Gillian, thanks for joining us.

Aunty Jill West: 2:10

Thank you for having me, Catherine. It's a pleasure.

Catherine: 2:15

Aunty Gillian. Can you please tell me about a time when someone close to you died?

Aunty Jill West: 2:22

Yeah, so I was 28 years old and my father died of a heart attack suddenly. He was 53 years of age and it impacted me in a way that I, I, I don't think I really dealt with it immediately because it was such a shock. But also he had remarried when I was 13 and lived in other states. So I felt like I'd lost him twice. So it was like when he passed away, it was. Disbelief. And then when we went up, he died on Bundjalung country and lives more. And when we went out for the, um, it wasn't a traditional ceremony then, but it was, it was at the, the funeral or the funeral home, I don't know what they're really called, and we just had a beautiful open casket ceremony with about 500 people. And that was when it really hit me that I saw my dad laying there and peacefully and beautiful. But I actually thought. That he hasn't really gone because we believe in the dream, in the dream time, which we can talk about later. So I think the most, yeah, him, him dying at such a young age at 53 and me 28, he had 4 other kids under 10, I think. And my twin obviously was 28 as well, and my older sister was 18 months older. So, yeah, that the impact of his young life and. And we can talk about that later, like during the interview of the work and the, um, things he did as an Aboriginal man that just wasn't finished.

Catherine: 4:03

Yeah. So tell me about your upbringing. You're a Palawa woman, so if you can just explain to the audience what your cultural heritage is and what that means to be a Palawa woman and, and also Bunurong, I believe.

Aunty Jill West: 4:16

Yeah, so I'm a Bunurong woman from a descendant, our Apical ancestor, Elizabeth Maynard, Sarah Maynard, sorry, and she was a woman taken by sealers, uh, the Point of the Nepean was a, a sacred women's site birthing area and five Bunurong women were there and taken by sealers and four to Tasmania, one to WA. So I'm along the lines of her and she was able to, you know, come back and be very strong. So I always keep reminding myself that lineage I have with that line to Bunurong, but I'm also, uh, Palawa woman. So we're along the lines of Manalaganna. He was our chief, chieftain, and they said he was of supreme intelligence. And so I'm lucky to be, come from two strong heritages dating back, as you'd know, 65, 000 years. So I'm very proud. Dad was very proud. And as he died so young, I actually am now teaching, which he did, and, uh, walking next to his footsteps because I'll never be able to walk in his footsteps. He was size 13 anyway, but yeah, that's what I do. His young life at 53, he had so much to do. So now I look at it as now I'm 51, nearly the age he died, and I'm continuing the work that he wasn't able to finish in the tangible world.

Catherine: 5:50

And just before we move on to your father, so Kallawa, that's in Tasmania.

Aunty Jill West: 5:55

Tasmania, and Bunurong is Victoria.

Catherine: 5:59

Fantastic, and like you were saying, around Point Nepean area. Point

Aunty Jill West: 6:03

Nepean, yeah, so Bunurong country is from Werribee River, Wilsons Prom, and to Point Nepean. I was actually born on Bunurong country in Williamstown, uh, so I'm very lucky to be born there. But dad, dad was born in Launceston and grew, put on a mission on Cape Barron and then grew up on Flinders Island as well. So I have strong connection to Tasmania as well as a strong connection to Bunurong country. So I live on Bunurong country. I'm lucky. But when I Need my cultural spirit field and connect to my ancestors from Tasmania, I'll go over to Flinders Island. and walk on country there. So I'm lucky to have two countries that I can be on.

Catherine: 6:48

And if you, you were just saying that your dad was taken and put on a mission on Flinders Island, so the fact that you even know what country you're from, it must be a unique perspective and ability to have that connection too, is that correct?

Aunty Jill West: 7:04

So lucky, yeah. So lucky that our stories have been handed down for 400 generations without one word changing orally and, you know, to be able to tell my dad's story that he was put on a mission in a segregated school when my grandfather was born on Cape Barren, his dad, and, you know, the, the hardships that they had and that segregated school, I can't imagine being in a school that I wasn't allowed near kids that weren't, you know, weren't Aboriginal because I was a lower, you know, looked at as not human or lower race than, I don't like saying white man or white people. So I always say Indigenous, non Indigenous people. And you know, he didn't have the opportunity to even finish grade five. Um, and I can't imagine what that's like. And with our great grandfather, Manigalena, my dad also had supreme intelligence. So he'd become a teacher, a master's in teaching, a senior university lecturer, and a doctor of Indigenous philosophy without. Finishing grade five.

Catherine: 8:10

How did that happen? Do you mind sharing that story? Like, that's so amazing.

Aunty Jill West: 8:15

Yeah, growing up in Flinders Island and then he started to study when he was, I think, 20 years old. He come to Victoria and to get an education and he met my mum. Well, actually he met my mum's brother, my uncle to start with, and all my mum's side are Jehovah Witnesses. Yeah, right. Wow. That's quite different. So when my dad, very different. So when my dad met my mom, they got married and my dad became a Jehovah's Witness. So his first three girls, including me, were born into that world for 10 years. So dad, in that time, got an education, mum worked, he worked, my grandmother, my mum's mum looked after us three so they could both work and dad could study. So dad studied at Melbourne Uni, becoming a teacher with the support of my mum. And yeah, he was an elder in the congregation of that religion and didn't talk about his Aboriginality at all. Because you've got to remember by the time he was 20, it was a 1967 referendum and he was just considered a human being.

Catherine: 9:23

Yeah. Cause prior to that time, do you want to just sort of give some insight into that?

Aunty Jill West: 9:27

Yeah, so prior to that time, our people weren't recognized as citizens or humans in their own country or be counted as part of the population. So my grandfather fought in the war in 1939 to 45 and returned, and he was a prisoner of war, my grandfather, and returned and still wasn't classed a human being or part of the population. And like I said, my dad was 20 and he was first considered. a person and could be counted as a population. So I think, I think meeting my mum at that time was something he really needed because having my mum and that Western world. It gave him that opportunity to be a human and a man and be recognized. And you know, he would talk at our meetings, we'd go around door knocking. He, he's, that's where he learned to speak the way he spoke. He had the intelligence, but that's where he learned to, yeah, to be recognized as a person and be able to study at a university. He did help build what's called a Rihuana Center in Tasmania as well. So he went back and my, my dad and mom actually split up when I was about 13. He, uh, him and my step mom, he's a beautiful Aboriginal woman. They met and had four other kids and lived in different places like Tassie and Lismore and Townsville. So dad was part of Rihawana Centre in Tasmania and every year they acknowledge him and there's a scholarship in his honour called Japanunga Arrowess Scholarship. So. You know, living that life of that religion too, for 10 years, I think helped shape, shape him into the two worlds. He was in that Western. A

Catherine: 11:16

little bit about that, because a lot of people don't have insight into what that means to be a Jehovah's Witness. So just to give a bit of insight, my husband's father converted to become a Jehovah's witness. And so his, his wife who I, I met and have a good relationship with, she is also a Jehovah's witness and continues to practice. And it's, it's quite a, an organized, structured religion, isn't it?

Aunty Jill West: 11:47

Yeah, it is. So, there was no, uh, birthdays, Easter, Christmas, you needed to be married before anything, door knocking, meetings. I think it was a Tuesday night and a Thursday night and a Sunday and door knocking on a Saturday. So it was consumed your whole life. Like I said, I never had a birthday, Christmas, Easter, until I was 10. I had to stand outside the classroom with my twin while they were making Easter eggs or painting Easter eggs or Christmas cards and things like that. Cause we weren't allowed to partake in it. Now I don't, my mom is still a Jehovah witness. It actually saved her, her life when my mom and dad split up. So, you know, I respect the religion, everyone's belief, but it's not something that I would ever, ever. be part of again. And that's not because I had bad experiences, but it's just not my belief. And yeah, so, so dad being in that world, I think it actually helped shaping him into a proud Aboriginal man. And I don't know if that even makes sense, but he was respected. People came to him. He studied. He's, uh, intelligence, like I said, was supreme. I had one of the highest IQs. So when he started studying, you know, he started to meet. Aboriginal people and no Aboriginal people. And then when I was 10, someone actually lied about him. So he pulled us all out. My mum included my two sisters and took us to Canberra. So in Canberra, he become the chairman of the national Aboriginal education committee and gave strategic advice to the minister of education. And that's when we found out we were Aboriginal. So he went from that world, or we went from that world to our cultural world as 10 year old, I was a 10 year old girl and started to learn about language and Tasmania. And at the time, dad didn't talk about Bunurong, but his brother, my uncle Chris. was part of Bunurong a long time. So I don't know the stories there, but my Uncle Chris always said Bunurong and Palawa, but didn't talk a lot about Palawa. My dad was Palawa and didn't talk about Bunurong. So, but at that time when we moved to Canberra, like a whole world changed. We, you know, we had Aboriginal people coming around. Dad, you know, was talking at gathering places and educating people and. Telling us about, you know, being born on, on that mission, one system and being put on the mission and yeah, whole life's changed and. He started to become a real activist for reconciliation and the rights of our people. And then the mum and dad split up and I ended up going back to Melbourne with my mum and my twin sister, where my mum went back to the religion. So not only did I lose my dad and that culture, I lost, well that's what I lost, my dad and culture and come to be with mum because I wanted to support mum and we didn't go back as 13 year olds. To be Jehovah witnesses, but that's what, you know, I still kept that Aboriginal sense of who I was growing up, but it was missing because dad had another family and he was in another state. So I kind of lost a little bit. Of culture and that connection, I could ring him up and he'd be there for me. I'd go visit whenever I got in trouble, he'd put me on a plane and I'd be up there with him. My stepmom was very supportive. My three sisters and brother are beautiful. And yeah, so when he died, you know, I felt like, you know, I said, I felt like I lost him twice, but I lost culture. Twice as well, because I lost it when I come here, and then I lost it when he, when he passed away, and I'm like, I'm never going to, to learn from my father, because our grandparents, the Palawa line, are the knowledge holders, the grandparents, the men teach the children, my grandfather died when I was nine. So I lost that cultural knowledge. So then my dad, I could do it only a little bit because it wasn't his obligation, it was my grandfather's obligation. So then our kids, when my dad died, they lost culture because he was the knowledge holder and the teacher of them. So when he passed away, I didn't know what to do or where to go. I had a, I had a boy, a baby boy at 20. And then I got a job at Centrelink, I think, when I was about 23, and when I got the job at Centrelink, there was a role called the Indigenous Service Officer, and I really wanted to get into that space, because I just had a feeling that I'll be able to connect to culture somewhere within that space. Another lady was doing it for a long time, so I applied when I just started, and I, you know, she won the role, obviously, she'd been doing it for 8 years. And then A couple of years later, there was a new manager, he come from Bundjalung country, Liz Moore, Chris Lewis. And this is a man that's actually put me on the cultural path that I am now, as well as dad from the dreaming and dream time of my grandfather. He'd become manager of the indigenous unit. And when someone mentioned my name, he said he's heard, Her dad, Errol West. And they said, my manager said yes. And he said, my mum worked with him at the uni. He's my uncle. He taught me. And I was at his, his ceremony in Lismore. I remember Gillian talking about him. And then he just, Took me in and put me on this cultural path of learning and that's where, how I was able to get to where I am now in the tangible world, Chris, and the intangible dreaming, dreaming is my grandfather and my dad. So everything turned out okay, but it's a bit of a story.

Catherine: 17:40

That is phenomenal because, you know, obviously there must have been, as you were saying, the grief of, of your, your parents separating. I'm just astounded that, you know, you were, you were 10 and your older sister was 12 when you found out that you were Aboriginal. Like I'm sure that that was very commonplace, but what a, what a thing to find out then to go through the separation of, of your parents and then come back and then come back into a Jehovah's world again is really amazing. And it's such a. Such a challenging time of being a teenager.

Aunty Jill West: 18:21

Yeah, I was 13. So you can imagine how old my twin and I were. We lived with my grandmother, my mum's mum, and she was still a Jehovah Witness, but they didn't make us go. They knew that they couldn't. We were grieving. We, you know, so, but always respected mum's choice and belief. You know, in what, what she believes in always, and she never pushes us, pushes it on us. Obviously, she'd love us to be part of it, but she's been really good like that. Yeah, but it was, it was a bit of, it's like, I felt like I'm jumping in two worlds while I'm grieving for my dad. So it's, you know, I still navigate that every day because I, you know, I, you've probably heard it with what you, you know, Do Catherines agree? Death is something you don't get over, but you learn to live with. Like, for me, when I need to also feel better, I go to the Bunurong Cemetery and sit down there. Because I believe it's a sacred area and I'm just finding out whether it is or not. I think it was a woman's site or something significant. So, I, death to me is, um, I feel closer. people who've passed away. Like my dad, I feel like he's with me more than when he was alive.

Catherine: 19:39

Now, tell me a little bit about how you went through that process of being 23 and starting this awakening, I suppose. Is that a good word to use? Yeah, that's a good word to use.

Aunty Jill West: 19:51

Yeah. Of

Catherine: 19:52

your culture. Yeah. And talk me through that process. Obviously, this is when you realised that the oral histories were passed down from the grandfather to the, the next grandchildren. Yeah. What other things did you learn during that time? There must have been huge amounts. There was so

Aunty Jill West: 20:10

much. So when I actually got the role as the Indigenous Service Officer, I applied for it, um, through Sat on a panel, the lady who had done it for a long time, didn't think I'd get it. And I did let her know that I was going to apply for it. She told me to go for it. When I got it, she appealed, which is everyone has the right to appeal. And then I won it. And that was a bit of a challenge too, because that lady actually went out and told community that I wasn't Aboriginal. So we have lateral violence and she told people that I wasn't Aboriginal. So I had to go into this community in the East and, and, and, and, and, Say I'm an Aboriginal woman when the Aboriginal woman who'd been doing it for 10 years at this time had told them I wasn't. So when I went out to community to meet community in the eastern suburbs and I mentioned my name, everybody knew my dad. So he was there helping me. Your dad saved my life. Your dad was my mentor. I remember listening to your dad when I was 16 years of age. Your dad helped start the Murrung program, which is in education. So The path was hard, but I always had him there, even to this day, you know, I went out, I remember when I got the, I had to go in the North area to do it, that role, and Bamblett's, Atkinson's, Lovett's, I had to introduce myself, your dad, your dad was the most Generous intellectual warrior we've ever met in our life, he had been talking about reconciliation to this day, Nicole Finlay, she's the CEO of Reconciliation Victoria, and she said to me a couple of months ago, Jill, I went to Canberra for a forum, and 15 people mentioned your dad's name. It's 23 years. So that is the thing that helped me navigate this, these spaces is knowing that my dad, yes, his reputation, but he's there helping me from the dreaming and the dream time on the path that I'm on now. So I have this warrior behind me and he may not be here tangibly in this world now, like we are sitting, but he's definitely in that dreaming dream time teaching me and guiding me and holding me up when I need.

Catherine: 23:40

And it's interesting that what you just mentioned there, those prominent Aboriginal names, that when you do mention those prominent names, there is an instant recognition within the, the, the community of, of where you fit in the jigsaw puzzle, because kinship is very, very different to a Western or non Indigenous

Aunty Jill West: 24:05

So our kinship systems, my aunties and uncles are my mothers and fathers and my cousins are my brothers and sisters, but that doesn't always mean it's blood related. So I have uncle, uncle Shane Clark, he's my dad, but he's along another line of the Apical Ancestors and Bunurong, Louisa Briggs. So but it's my obligation to look after him as a father, you know, because that kin, kinship System was so intelligent and complex that we have to try and adhere to that in our Western world, which when I teach, I talk about, you know, how do policies look at that, that kinship system that my aunties and uncles and my mothers and fathers and my cultural obligation to those people. And if I get denied leave, because I need to look after in their eyes, my auntie and uncle, I have to resign from work because I cannot say no to those cultural obligations. Thanks.

Catherine: 25:04

And that's the thing isn't it? Because from my understanding is that, uh, the traditional or conventional way in which we view a family structure is, you know, with the, you know, the mother and the father and then. The lineage that goes down from there and, and from when I have actually had the opportunity to see a kinship tree written out, uh, in, in, and it was actually done recently at the Venice Biennale. Uh, there was an Aboriginal artist that wrote out his kinship tree that traced back for 60, 000 years. And it was so diverse. And not the, you know, Western or non Indigenous way of viewing a, a kinship at all, you know.

Aunty Jill West: 25:55

And it's

Catherine: 25:55

like,

Aunty Jill West: 25:56

and that's that moiety system that we had, you know, where our, you know, male A couldn't marry female B, female D couldn't marry female E, male E. So, and it was like a, A quadrant with four, a circle with four quadrants, and it could be up to 28 quadrants deep. And that was marriage laws. And that was, uh, totems, culture, songlines, you know, law, land. And it was made up of that and it's that complex. So when the Western world came in and invaded, we, our mighty system was destroyed. Our people from the Stolen Generation are finding out that they're married to their aunties and uncles or their brothers and sisters. And that's, you know, it's not just about land being taken, it's so much deeper than that. You know, so navigating these two worlds for our people is, is extremely hard before we even go to work socialise. We're living in two worlds before we walk out that door. And

Catherine: 27:04

the moiety from my understanding was to ensure that there, it was a very sophisticated system and it was to ensure that the genetics, you know, Yeah, that we

Aunty Jill West: 27:15

didn't marry our, we didn't marry our cousins. Yeah, stuff like that. So that's, that's what it was about. And I do have a moiety, I could probably send you if you want it. I do have a feed on moiety where it explains that, that it, These laws allowed and disallowed marriages, the levelling of punishment, rewards, you know, delineated totems, you know, and I don't know if you can see it, all this.

Catherine: 27:42

No, but what we can do is we can actually add it to the show notes. Yeah,

Aunty Jill West: 27:46

that would be really good. People can read

Catherine: 27:47

it. Yeah.

Aunty Jill West: 27:48

Yes. Yeah, because it says Moiti secured social order, the caring of law, children, land, ceremony and elders, and if broken, punishments were severe.

Catherine: 27:59

Yeah, and in certain places still in Australia, uh, from my understanding, they do allow traditional Aboriginal law to be followed alongside, you know, sort of Western laws. Yep.

Aunty Jill West: 28:16

Yeah, and some of our people that are in remote communities that have no Western interference, this, this is practiced. This is still very real. And then in some states up north, I'm pretty sure they will have Punishment laws, which could be spearing of the leg, and they'll have a nurse there or police, and they'll all be together to be able to, because part of those punishment laws too is, is where you, you stand in the seat as an elder or community member. And if you don't perform that, it's based on the laws from our ancestral spirits. So it's a law that has to be upheld because it's attached to song lines. and stories and the way of living.

Catherine: 29:00

And maybe can we just explain a little bit to someone who may not be familiar?

Aunty Jill West: 29:05

Yeah.

Catherine: 29:06

So I call you Aunty, although we're not related, but for me, I know that it's a sign of respect for someone who is a knowledge keeper of your cultural heritage. So that's why I call you Aunty. What about, uh, Songlines that you're talking about and totems sort of, if you can give a brief explanation of those.

Aunty Jill West: 29:29

So songlines is when, uh, we follow, and everyone's different, you know, how many different mobs we have, different communities. So everyone's is different, but songlines from what I've been taught is, is that pattern, like, you follow the songlines by stars, by land, by trees, by singing, you know, it's a, it's a story. So there's a, you could actually put this on the podcast too. There's a, uh, song written for my dad by an auntie of mine and uncle, and my uncle sings, A man wrote it. It's called Songlines of the Moon. Bird. And it's about the story of him going back and being taken by his ancestors to where he belongs. So that song can, will explain songlines. It's like a story, a journey. And that's what our songlines are. With our totems, we can be born with up to four totems, or, and they're either given to us, or they come to us at a certain time. So say a woman's giving birth, and we give birth in trees, and a kookaburra flew past as that baby's born, that kookaburra would be that baby's totem. And in other communities, they may be given four totems that reflect where they sit in their community, and where their parents sit. It can be very complex as well, and I would never talk about anyone else's communities, only my own. And mine was a turtle, so when I found out I was Aboriginal at 10 years old, I remember going to, I don't know, it was I have this vision or memory of a river and a turtle come up to me, and at that time when I was confused, and ever since then, people gave me little turtles. Everywhere I went, there'd be a turtle where I'd go to a river and it'd come up to me. So the turtle is my totem, and with totems, it's our strengths and our weaknesses. We cannot eat our totems. We protect our totems and our totems protect us. So I say, I don't need a psychologist. I've got a totem and they're very important to who we are. We have family totems and we have personal totems. So I say people from our stolen generation and family that don't know where they're from, it's such a loss because you know, the, the totems come at times when we're grieving, times when we're at an event, happy event, sad event, and they will appear. And I could tell you so many stories about totems, my totem, my nieces totem, you know, the kookaburras behind me is my dad's spirit animal, but it's still along the lines of a totem that protects us and looks after us. So, and this is all part of our dreaming and dream time that helps us with our grief process.

Catherine: 32:18

And maybe could you, would that be a good way to segue into the beautiful picture behind you and explaining it?

Aunty Jill West: 32:23

Yeah, yeah, so when Dad passed away at 53, he left seven children. And within a couple of days, a kookaburra visited all 77 of his children across Australia. So the kookaburra is Dad's spirit animal. A friend of mine was cleaning her mother in law's apartment who had unfortunately passed away and she messaged me, Jill, I've got this most beautiful painting for you. And I'm like Better ask the family, you know, don't steal off dead people. And she's like, I promise. So she told the family of the story of the seven children, Kookaburra, and him passing away. And they gifted me this painting. So dad married and had three of us there. You see? Yeah. And then, and then the little gap, little gap there and had four other children. So they depict, you know, they depict us. Nearly exactly so the two kookaburras at the first marriage and me and my older sister and we have challenges and don't really talk and my twins in the middle going, I'm over you two and then my brother's at the end and he's the only boy, six foot six, all his six sisters and he's protecting and looking after us. So that is, that is that connection to dreaming and during time and dad, you know, being there and our grandfathers and ancestors that no one gets a painting that That depicts the family so well, you know, without it coming from that dreaming and dream time.

Catherine: 33:54

That's amazing. And tell me, um, tell me a little bit more about, you know, you're now sort of, you know, 23 heading towards 26, you're going through a huge learning curve with your culture. Uh, and. What, what happens, were you still in communication with your father at this stage? You had one son at this point in time?

Aunty Jill West: 34:19

Yep. So yep, still in communication with dad to go visit him. When I had my breakup with my father, son's father, dad, I lived with him and my step mum and sisters and brother, they were only little. So my son was the nearly age of my dad's youngest. And yeah, he, he. He was always there and my stepmum always there for us when we needed it. And, you know, I'd visit him and watch what he does. He'd still be teaching and talking on the phone all the time to community and people coming to him and writing papers. He'd be just at his table writing papers all the time and studying and sharing. So, yeah. Up until that, I talked to him the week before he passed away, and you know, he wasn't feeling very well. They'd set mum, step mum and dad separated, so he wasn't, you know, in a very good place, but he was trying, and yeah, and, I was able to see him or call him whenever I wanted. It never felt the same, obviously, as being that family unit, because when your dad has another family, it also affects you as a 13 year old girl. You know, I can't deny that, but you do your best you can. I would always respect my step mom and respect my dad and everything, support my mom as well. So dad was always there whenever I needed, if I need to ask a question, I needed some guidance, I needed to go in there. Always there. And then, yeah, when he passed away, that was the difficult part about still being on my cultural journey. How was I going to do this? And then Chris Lewis came into my life and, you know, it was like dad sent him to come and help me become who I am today as well.

Catherine: 36:05

And tell me about that, that sort of path you've walked since that time when your father died and then coming into your life and then, you know, the work that you're doing now.

Aunty Jill West: 36:18

Yeah, so I finished at Centrelink. Uh, I thought, It just got too hard at Centrelink, like, there's too much demand put on our people. I had to look after, you know, a lot of areas, and I just couldn't keep up and maintain that. And, you know, trying to help our people navigate that Centrelink system. With death and payments and children and, you know, and I, I've got a lot of respect in the Victorian community for me because I did everything I could to help our people. I just couldn't do it anymore. And I had someone else. Who'd had an Aboriginal business for recruitment, asked me if I wanted to start working there, so as a CEO. So I ended up going there, things didn't go very well, which is okay, you come out of it. And then, I don't know if you've heard of Kyle Vandekuyp, he's the Olympic gold medalist. Very good friends with him and he asked me to come over to a company that they've got a foundation called Kalara Foundation. So we help people, we helped people get into housing. jobs and I was a life skills coach. So I coached them and mentored them to work, to live in housing and just to support them with everything. So I was back supporting community again. And at that stage, a cousin from the Bunurong Land Council needed an office manager and he rang me and said, Jill, do you want to come over? And I said, no, I'm okay here because Kyle and the men that worked there, I was the only woman, but they were really. Really lovely men who supported me. Kyle was the only indigenous man. The others were non indigenous, but I was able to help support all of them and with cultural knowledge. And my cousin rang again, he goes, Jill, I really need you. So I spoke to Kyle and Kyle said, Jill, this is my journey. That's your journey. You know, you can go. So I become office manager at Bunurong Land Council for a little while, which is challenging as well, because that's. community and with our five ethical ancestors as five different families. So I wasn't able to maintain that stress of family and other families. So I thought I need to do what I've always wanted to do. And that was to be a teacher. So I wanted to be a teacher my whole life, but because I had my son so young, I wanted him to have everything. So I worked and I didn't, I couldn't go to uni. I couldn't go. You know, study, cause I had to work to support my son and we were on our own for most of his life. Um, so I wanted to give that to him and I thought I'm just gonna, cause I trained at Centrelink, Chris Lewis helped me become a facilitator. So I ended up with another woman, a Darwin woman putting together a package when I left Centrelink and thought, I'll just see how I go. And yeah, got a few gigs and. Word of mouth got around and now I have one of the most successful consulting training businesses just booked out, totally booked out from, you know, till the end of the year. And I have my niece, my twin's daughter coming along the road on this journey with me. Uh, she lost culture and now she's found it through me and dad. So we facilitate two hour half day or full days and it's not about guilt or sorry. Because no one learns in that space. It's about these stories I told you about the seven Kookaburras. It's that connection to country and Dreamtime. It's as basic as what's the difference between an acknowledgement and a welcome, and what do those welcome and smoking ceremonies really mean? The depth and the importance of them. What do the flag colours represent? Did you know that we had to have, we have to have confirmation of Aboriginality? Not saying I'm Aboriginal, but it has to say I'm Palawa and it has to say I'm Bunurong. You know, even to, you know, our moiti, our kinship, our skin names. I talk about all that. I talk about intergenerational trauma, stolen generation and the. impacts that are still happening today and we have activities and we share and it's not only my voice that's important, their voices are so important and I have met the most amazing non Indigenous people through this journey that I know that we're going to be okay, that in my grandson's lifetime he's going to be able to be proud and not be afraid. People aren't going to go, but you don't look Aboriginal, or aren't you all alcoholics? Aren't you all, you know, on drugs? I don't think those questions will be asked by the time he's growing up. My generation, they're still being asked, because we weren't allowed to use our voices, so now we At my generation, I have aunties and uncles that are tired. They can't do it anymore. So we have to step up now for our generation. So I teach in health hospitals, big organizations, custom fleet, councils, local councils, and yeah, it's just really diverse what I do. And I love it because I'm able to talk about my dad every day and hear his voice and tell the stories. And that. is my grieving process. You know, I hear his voice every day that I train and I share his story and I see his photo.

Catherine: 41:49

And something that was really beautiful, uh, that you were just talking about then, and you touched on in the workshop that I did with you was that, that issue of guilt that, that people have and, and, you know, in the workshop, I think, I don't think there was a dry eye after we, we had all finished going through the process of holding the talking stick and sharing our own experiences. But I really like your perspective on your thoughts in relation to, about the fact that. You know, we're not responsible for our ancestors and so, because as a, you know, white, white, non Indigenous person, you can feel a lot of guilt about what has happened. And then

Aunty Jill West: 42:37

certainly in my training, they all do Catherine, they all feel guilt, they all cry. And even when I say this is not a space of guilt, they can't help it. And my dad said, Jillian, teach with respect if you're ever going to teach, because I talked to him about teaching, teach with respect. You don't know where anyone's come from. So that's what I do. We are not, we are not, we, non Indigenous people are not the ones that did this. It was the government. The past mistreatment of the government at the time, and yes, we were invaded by British, but it's not the people that are sitting in my training that are coming from British heritage, their fault. So every day, every time I do a training, we hold my message stick or talking stick, and I want people to tell me where they're from, the best moment of their, of their week. Not, I go by moments, not weeks or months, and the heritage is so important because I say it's okay to say British and it's okay to say Australian because where you come from is the most important piece of who you are, doesn't matter about the history. You've always got to be proud because it wasn't you that did this. And Australia has this misconception that we think it's them personally, but it's not. It was a, in my opinion, it was a mistreatment by the government and the people at the time. I have that many non Indigenous people in my life that I had, I train every day that come back to me with stories about Kookaburras. It's unbelievable. I need to, I need to write a book about it because the stories that they come back with after my training or even a day before that they've seen a kookaburra and they've never seen one before, uh, is unbelievable. And it's about reconciliation. That's, we can't do anything without reconciliation.

Catherine: 44:30

And it really is that sort of openness that I see. Think that you encourage that we'll sort of pave the way for this to happen in the future. And is, is what the work that you're doing now, from what I've seen is just that, that openness and that not having that, that grief or guilt associated with it. So, and that, and just that ability to ask questions with that and learn without feeling like a question, stupid, or because. The last thing that anyone wants to do is be disrespectful. So, you know, from my experience in your workshop, it was a very open and anything was, was on the table that you could ask. And that was very important. So I really appreciate your, your openness really.

Aunty Jill West: 45:19

And I think that comes from, I remember sitting at Centrelink and I. I used to have some of the most vulnerable people, before I become the Indigenous Service Officer, I used to have the most vulnerable people sitting in front of me, and I had the social workers were behind me, so they would hear me talking, and like, I didn't realise they would hear me talking, and I would make sure people had food, or I'd refer them to places if they didn't have housing, so it was more than just putting their payment through, it was a one on one connection, I, you know, it was never a It wasn't all fun. I did get threatened and things like that, but most of the people I just wanted to help so that they didn't walk, walk out feeling less vulnerable than they did before they walked in that door and social work come up to me one day and I remember she said, Jill, do you know what emotional intelligence is? And I said, no, I've never heard of it. She goes. You have emotional intelligence. And I said, what is that? And she said, it's the ability not to judge people. It's the ability to see people just as you are and that insight you have. And I actually thought about it. And I thought I've been like that my whole life. You know, I've never judged people. I accept people the way they are. And I believe that is because that was the way we were as people. My dad said. Remember what I said, it's not your right to understand, but it is your obligation to accept difference. And he said, had we had the capacity to do that, he believed no weapons of war would have ever been created. That he had a belief that the 200 plus year war in this country has remained non violent due to the deep love of human life that our Ancestors and people had the people of difference. And then he said, it wasn't until our women and children were murdered and poisoned that our men struck back with overt violence. And he said, don't point somewhere in Victoria where someone spewed a sheep, get real about philosophy who wouldn't protect their beloved future generations. So what strikes me

Catherine: 47:23

is that on that point is the fact that I'm not sure how many cultures around the world have a specific. Welcome to this part of my country and to cleanse spirits and make them, you know, welcome on the country. So just by that very act that is embedded into your culture, you know, is saying that you're welcoming everyone.

Aunty Jill West: 47:52

Yeah. And that's what I talk about. Welcome to countries and smoking isn't about us saying we give you permission. It's about going through country and being protected and looked after to be able to come back as well, protected and looked after. And it's in our DNA and it's what we did traditionally. We didn't welcome and smoke white people or non Indigenous people. Sorry, I hate saying that. We didn't do that traditionally. We did it to each other. Like a Wurundjeri person will come onto Bunurong Country, we'd smoke them and welcome them, they'd continue through safely, get rid of any bad jujus, heal them, cleanse them, and they can continue through Country being smoked with the distinct different leaves used. And then if they saw another, another Bunurong person through country, the Bunurong person would go up to them, smell that smoke, you're safe, keep going, you know, that's what it was about. It was about respecting each other and sharing each other's different cultures and going through country safely. And it means different things to different communities. But for us, it's about being safe and protected and continue your journey where old relationships are reestablished and new ones are formed. You know, where we could and we couldn't go to protect each other. Our laws, our songlines, our moiety, it was, it was about all of that. It's about all of that. So yeah. And I, sorry, go.

Catherine: 49:22

Just something that you mentioned earlier to Aunty Jill, just about the amount of different language groups. So what I will actually include is, is the language group map of Australia that has been produced. Because I think that gives a great visual to just how diverse Australia was as a country. I, I think there was how many language groups?

Aunty Jill West: 49:46

I think there's 750 different dialects and 500 different tribal groups.

Catherine: 49:53

Yeah, and to see the map. You can

Aunty Jill West: 49:55

probably find out more.

Catherine: 49:57

Yeah, yeah, look, to see the map is something that, uh, I always find amazing. It's just because it's just so diverse and gives such an accurate picture. depiction of how diverse our country was, you know, with the Indigenous

Aunty Jill West: 50:13

population then. Sorry, it's 500 different languages and I think, I always get it mixed up and I teach it every day. Well, my niece teaches it now, so I will find out and let you know. That's

Catherine: 50:26

okay, we'll, we'll put the map on the show notes, Aunty Jill, that's all good. Tell me, you spoke to your father a week before he died. Yeah. Was his death expected,

Aunty Jill West: 50:37

or? No, he was, he wasn't a well man most of his life. He was very overweight at one stage. He lost a lot of weight. But my dad, and the stories I've been told, you know, my dad did drink and he did smoke. So he had a lot of illnesses. But, you know, at 50, well, my grandfather, his dad died at 63. So he died at 53, and it was unexpected. He wasn't, you know, in hospital, he was still working and teaching at the uni, and yeah, it was, wasn't expected at all. It was very unexpected.

Catherine: 51:14

And he was obviously very highly regarded with a funeral with over 500 people in attendance. I think from the footage you showed us, uh, he was also at that time, as you mentioned, he was a philosopher, he was published works, he was at university teaching, uh, he'd also been on, I believe the ABC and they'd done a documentary on him. Had they at that stage? I think I saw some footage.

Aunty Jill West: 51:48

I don't know, is there a documentary on it? I haven't seen it.

Catherine: 51:52

I just, maybe it might have been just something on, maybe something like Four Corners or something like that. There was some

Aunty Jill West: 51:58

footage

Catherine: 51:59

of, yeah. Oh, I'll

Aunty Jill West: 52:00

have to look into that. But I do have a conference of him talking for half an hour, 10 months before he passed away, that I was able to get a couple of years ago. And that was, another connection to dreaming and dream time because I did a welcome to country at bunjil place and the lady the council said is your dad era west and I said yes I heard him talk the other week on the radio I'm like that's not possible and that was when I wrote to the radio station when she told me what radio station and I've got his conference and him talking for half an hour and the things he's saying are the things I've been saying. I always said, you do not pursue elders knowledge, elders knowledge pursues you. And I'm like, I don't even know where that come from. And he says it in that. So yeah, there are, there is, and there's a book inside Black Australia. It's got all of his poems because he wrote poems as well. A lot of work everywhere that, you know, his PhD or his thesis is online. And after starting to read that after a long time, I, I realize it's his cultural knowledge that he's written down. So that's something that I use and go through all the time to, to learn as well. So yeah, I think he's probably been on documentaries and he, you know, that conference was at Lingalonga Farm where Stan Grant, I think, owns that property. So he knew Stan Grant really well. He worked with Linda Burney. He worked with the other Minister of Indigenous People, Ken Wyatt. He, you know, he, he, He gave them advice, you know, he worked with them and yeah, very prominent. So I think that's why death isn't really a reality to me for him, because he's still with me. And that's what I think people, when people die, I always say, I feel closer to my dad in death than I did in life, because their spirit, their soul, whatever you believe in, is closer to you now, because they can go wherever they want. They can just be there when you need them, watch over you at times that you need them or you don't need them. And yeah, they say death is permanent, but to me, death is the celebration of life. Life, and you, you know what the queen said, and you know, I, I'm not into all this, they're colonial. I follow the royal family because I think it's just a different way of living. And she said, do you remember what she said? Catherine grief is the love that you felt that surprised that comes with loving grief. Right. I can get the exact words that she says. And I always. I always think of that, about what she said, because at that moment, the Queen actually gave me a little bit of insight into death. I'll see if I can find it.

Catherine: 54:55

But it's true, isn't it? You, you don't grieve something unless you've loved it.

Aunty Jill West: 55:00

Yeah, that's what she said. Oh, here it is, a famous saying. That's my ending. I'll find it for you and, and give it to you, but it was such a powerful thing. Yeah, include it in your notes. Yeah, it just made me realize, you know, grief comes with the amount of love you feel for that, that person. And if you don't love, you can't grieve, and it's all part of a process of that life, and our dreaming and dream time, although I say is life, birth and death.

Catherine: 55:40

Can you tell us a little bit about that, Aunty Jill, about the Dreamtime and how you explain that to people?

Aunty Jill West: 55:48

Yeah, so with my view on dreaming and Dreamtime, I'll always say, you know, it's different for every community. And mob and even person, uh, dreaming and dream time is a continuous cycle of life, birth and death. That's the framework of our people of all of our people. It's dreaming. Dream time is the same continuous cycle. So in death, a person returns to their spiritual. Dreaming and Dreamtime. So sometimes when you can't say the name of someone, it's because you're calling them back to go to their Dreaming and Dreamtime. And Dreaming and Dreamtime is intangible and tangible. So when I talk about my dad and he's in the Dreamtime, it's a living world that he's living in, it's like he's back traditionally where he is. So he's teaching from the Dreaming and Dreamtime, which is everything, it's tangible, intangible. So it's what, what I see now and it's what I vision in the Dreaming Dreamtime by the fire with, you know, the, the stars and the songs and he's singing and he's got my grandfathers there and my uncles there and they're around the fire and they're talking men's business and then they're doing their men's business and, you know, Women are there doing their women's business. So the place that we go to in our dreaming and dream time is just continuous. Our bodies have gone where they need to go or where you choose. Like my dad was cremated, but your, ancestral spirit and your spirit will go back to culture, traditional ways of living. And that's, yeah, and it's hard to explain it to people so that they really understand it. And like, I just keep going back. It's not your right to understand, but your obligation to accept. And that's what I say, different races of people. We don't have to understand why a Muslim person does what they do or wear what they wear. We just have to accept that that's their way of life. So, When Dad's, do you want me to tell you about the ceremony, Dad's ceremony?

Catherine: 58:00

Yeah. That'd be great.

Aunty Jill West: 58:01

Yeah. So when he passed away, we had his, it was like a funeral, but it wasn't. So there was an open area at the, the graveyard in Lismore, a cemetery, and he was in a coffin with a marquee over an open coffin and everyone put things in that they wanted to, like we put all our cards and our words and things in and people would come up, about 500 people up talking to him and then he went and got cremated. And when he got cremated, his ashes were given to his children. So for seven years, we held onto his ashes and they were passed around to his children because we just weren't ready to let him go that way. And then an auntie, Aunty Patsy Cameron, who's a, an elder in Tasmania, said it's time for him to come home. So our family in Tasmania organised a ceremony where we were able to go up a mountain called Blue Tear Mountain that no one's gone up for 150 years. and take his ashes up there. So we had about, I think, 50 family, family there, uncle who wrote the song about, or who sung the song about dad and auntie who wrote it, other aunties, we had clapping sticks and rocks and took his ashes up to the top of the mountain. Now uncle had made a bark canoe, so that for men's business, the, Men or boys went into a cave. So there was uncle, my son, my twin sister's son and my brother and a cousin. And the boys went into this cave and the women went over and sung and okered up, were crying. And, you know, I don't remember the songs, uh, what they mean, but I don't need to, cause I felt them and they'll always be with me. And about an hour and a half after that, They transferred, all I know, what happened was they transferred the ashes from the box to the bark canoe that was made for him. When those boys come out of that cave, they were men. It was, they changed, they were strong, they were, there was something about them that were different. To this day, none of them have ever spoken about it because it's men's business. So, I'll never know what happened in that cage, cave, and nor will I ever ask. So, my son, my nephew, my brother, and another cousin. We come back down singing again. We went to a place called Ringer Room Bay. So Ringer Room Bay at the point of Ringer Room Bay. You've got the Islands of Tasmania, so Flinders Island, big dog island, all the different islands. Cape Barron and at, we were at the edge of there. We had a big bonfire. Uncle and auntie sung the song about Songlines of the moon, bird. We all spoke about what dad meant to us around a big. bonfire and then my brother took the canoe that was on like sticks to the edge of the water. Now you know the Bass Strait, it's massive, absolutely massive. My brother lit the canoe up and it went up in flames. It hit the water again and went straight to Flinders Island. It did not deviate from Flinders Island. So that was him going home. And that again is that Dreaming Dreamtime culture that's so strong and important to who we were because that canoe could have gone anywhere. But it went straight to Flinders Island and we watched it go. And that is part of the grieving process that we know that he's gone where he wanted to go because he had control of that because he's in the Dreaming and Dreamtime. He went, he wanted to go there. So our people are so lucky with our Dreaming and Dreamtime and our culture. Colonization nearly wiped it all out, but our people are so strong, resilient, kind, traumatized, you know. Substance abuse, alcohol abuse, all that kind of stuff that comes with it, but we are still there trying to find our way into our culture and our dreaming and dream time, which is embedded in our DNA. So, as long as our people are connected to culture, I really think that's the 1 thing that will save our people who are struggling. I always say connect our people to culture, even if it's not their own culture, connect them to someone else's culture so we can embrace them and help them be able to live their traditional way of life in a Western, Western world.

Catherine: 1:02:35

And the Dreaming, from my understanding with what you're explaining, it really is a place that Is always there where there's not a defined timeline or anything like that. It's always there that you can tap into and get strength from.

Aunty Jill West: 1:02:55

Yeah. So dad said time is not of the essence. It is the essence. So it is the now, it's, people talk about that mindfulness, you think about now, you think about what we're doing right now, instead of thinking about what happened yesterday, or something that may not happen in the future, the time right now is the essence, and we need to embrace this moment, the time that we are at right now, and that's what we do, we tap into the dreaming, dream time at any time, because it's there constantly, it never goes away.

Catherine: 1:03:29

And I suppose that also links into the fact that the concept, excuse me, the concept of seasonal change and time itself, when you think that time and how we view it as a 24 hour clock and it's measured by seconds, that, that is, and how we view a calendar year, that's also. dictated by a European construct. Whereas, from my understanding, just with working at the Royal Botanic Gardens and looking at seasonal change, that, you know, the Badawurrung people looked at it like a seasonal calendar according to the changes of the cycles of what was happening in nature. So I think that, you know, brings it out to like a seven season year instead of like what we have where we have a very traditional European four seasons.

Aunty Jill West: 1:04:23

Yeah. So we have six seasons, the Bunurong people.

Catherine: 1:04:26

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Aunty Jill West: 1:04:28

And, and that, you know, and that it's the way we live our life. We traditionally lived our life. So, you know, if a certain constellation appeared, it was a time to hunt a particular animal or dig up a particular plant. It was the way we lived. Even the fishermen, they used the flowering of the coast tea tree in November to mark the early season or the entry of the snapper fish into Port Phillip Bay. So it was And that's still used as a guide now. Yeah. And even like, uh, When I went to Alice Springs, the, uh, a traditional custodian told me that, you know, at night they would sit in around a fire and a eagle or hawk would come down, pick up the coal, fly off. And where, where that eagle dropped it was where food and water could be found. So they would follow that line of that eagle or the stars, you know, First Inventors is an amazing show. But I don't know if you've seen that, it's. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, the way we lived so different, you know, the six seasons, not the four seasons. And yeah, it's just beautiful. And I just, yeah, I just love being an Aboriginal woman, you know, even though there's grief and there's loss and you know, I just have to do it for future generations and for my ancestors so that people understand. where we were, what happened, where we are and where we want to go. And not everyone, you know, we do have our strong activists that are out there, you know, and that, that needs to happen. But we also need people like me to be able to teach gently as well. And we are such diverse communities. Like, if people say to me, or do we put, you under diversity and inclusion? I said, no, we sit under our own area because we have so much diversity within our own culture. So you need to separate those policies or what you've got at work. It doesn't come under that. So it was, it's yeah, I found that quote that the queen said, I've been so straight. She said, grief is the price we paid for love. So I kind of got it right.

Catherine: 1:06:52

Yeah, that's great. It is, it is because it only comes hand in hand, doesn't it?

Aunty Jill West: 1:06:58

Yeah, it sure does.

Catherine: 1:07:01

And tell me Ani, Jill, have you talked about death with your own children and your grandchildren or is that something that you?

Aunty Jill West: 1:07:11

Yeah, I've talked to death, I've talked about death with my son and my niece and just what I want to happen. I haven't got a will, which I've got to do a will. I don't know why we don't have wills. And yeah, just that, you know, I want to be. Cremated, definitely. Now my mum's mum, who my nana was very close to, she grew up in Queenscliff, so she was cremated and thrown over the cliffs at Queenscliff, and my mum's going to have the same, and I was going to have the same, but I'm thinking I want to just be on Bunurong Country, so I've got to decide what I want done. I always say to my son, And people that when you talk to someone, make sure you end the call nicely, because you don't know what's going to happen as make sure, you know, you're kind and you say, I love you all goodbye or have, you know, so I have spoken about it, but I don't have a will. My son doesn't identify as much as he should because of the Western world and he has white skin and it's his journey. He needs to, you know, learn that journey, but he knows my beliefs and he's got culture embedded in him. It's just. When he's ready to open it up. So he knows that I want a cultural ceremony and I'll write it all down. I'll do a will after this podcast, actually, because it's important.

Catherine: 1:08:24

Yeah. You know, it's okay. 46 percent of people, you know, only 46 percent have a will. So, you know, you're in there with the numbers.

Aunty Jill West: 1:08:33

Yeah, because dad didn't have a will dad had nothing. So, you know, there was. We had to rely on our aunties and uncles for guidance and that dreaming and dream time and the way that he was to be sent off and things like that. So we were lucky we had that, our elders to help us with that, because if we didn't, I don't know what would have happened with his ashes. You know, my sister, my sister, my twin's still grieving very heavily about him and she wanted some of his ashes, but my auntie said, we don't do that. We don't separate ashes, which is, I wouldn't separate them either. So that was something that she had to, you know, that was part of more grief for her as well, you know?

Catherine: 1:09:16

Yeah. Yeah. And you're so right though, that if you don't document it, you lose that cultural history and to know what is the tradition to follow.

Aunty Jill West: 1:09:27

Yeah, yeah. So, so important.

Catherine: 1:09:32

Is there, given your personal experience, actually before I ask this question, you know what I will ask is just one reference that you were talking about, how I might just get you to explain the, When you were saying that people, we don't mention their names, sometimes families don't mention their name to stop them being called back. So if you could just explain that a little bit from your understanding.

Aunty Jill West: 1:09:58

Yeah. So from my understanding and what I've been taught, some communities, when someone passes away, you can't say the name of that person for a period of time. So it could be a week. It could be six months. It could be. Forever. Because when we say the name of that person, we're calling them back and they can't go to the dreaming and dream time. So just say Jillian died, just say a Jillian died in community, anyone's name, it's named Jillian, had to change their name for that period of time, either to their middle name or their language name.

Catherine: 1:10:32

Yeah, right.

Aunty Jill West: 1:10:33

Because you cannot say the name. Now, it's so strict that. For Centrelink, if someone passed away and we needed to just cease the record, I had to teach our customer service officers that the Aboriginal person would tell you the letters, like, and you couldn't repeat that name back. You had to actually write that name and then not say it and then do what you need to do on the record. But with policies, what does that look like for. Not even policies, but Vic Rhodes, just say one of those Jillians needed to go for a driver's license. Does Vic Rhodes look at the name that they're given culturally or do you have to have your legal name? Does that person have to wait to get their driver's license for the period of time the name's not being said?

Catherine: 1:11:19

Wow, that's really challenging, isn't it?

Aunty Jill West: 1:11:21

Yeah, so it's not in all communities and, but it is in a lot of our communities, like, you know, even for ever. So anyone's name whose name was in community was forever had to be called another name forever. So they lost their name because they had the same name as the person who passed away. They had to be given another name or take another name. And that's why we do have that in some communities because and traditionally, I believe that it would have been all of our people that would have been the same tradition because the Dreaming and the Dreamtime is in every community. It's not that basic law of Dreaming and Dreamtime is with all community. So.

Catherine: 1:12:07

very much.

Aunty Jill West: 1:12:08

Yeah. And is

Catherine: 1:12:10

that, that's really, thank you for sharing that because that's something that people do come across on a regular basis in the news when it's being culturally sensitive. The question I was going to ask, um, was given your personal experience, is Is there any other advice or encouragement that you would like to give to people in relation to, you know, traditional ceremony or, uh, attending someone who's Aboriginal, their funeral, anything along that line to provide people with some insight about what's the appropriate protocols to follow?

Aunty Jill West: 1:12:44

Yeah. So if someone passes away in community and you know what mob community they're from, so just say someone that you know passed away at Bunurong, contact the Bunurong Land Council. So contact the land councils or medical services and find out their protocol because they're all different. So all you need to do is ask the questions. If you don't ask questions, you're not going to know. And ask. Just ask in a way that I'm talking now, but medical services or land counsellors will be able to give you the protocol or process to go to that ceremony. And I always say to people, you know, don't turn up at someone's ceremony you don't know, but invent yourself in our culture, go to our gathering places, go to our community days. Participate in NAIDOC National Reconciliation Week, go to Welcome and Smoking, sit with our people, learn our culture, learn how to weave, learn how to make clapping sticks, get a healing, you know, we do didgeridoo, not women, men play didgeridoo, they do healings, you know, Google and find out what's in your area. And learn about who we are and you will become so much richer because I say to people, we have totems, but you may have your own kind of animal or something that resonates with you, you know, that someone passes away. And then all of a sudden there was a flock of cockatoos and then they keep coming back. That's that person coming saying, I'm here. I'm still here. You know, so. Our culture is the most beautiful, resilient, richest culture in the whole world, as well as the longest living culture, and embrace, embrace that culture and walk with us and, you know, your journey will become amazing. That's what I always say.

Catherine: 1:14:38

Thank you so much Aunty Jill. I think what we will do is we'll make sure that we have the NAIDOC events on the show notes, uh, also anything for Reconciliation Week there, and you know, also the local gathering place, especially on Bunurong Country, uh, so people can find what's going on in their local area.

Aunty Jill West: 1:14:56

Yeah, and I'll send you Deb's song if you want to put that up, I'm happy for you to put that up, and Moon, someone's at the Moon bit, and I'll give you the moiety sheet too.

Catherine: 1:15:07

That'd be beautiful. Thank you so much for being with us today. No, thank you.

Aunty Jill West: 1:15:10

No, thanks Catherine for inviting me. It was amazing meeting you and thanks for everything that you do for our people as well. Thank you. To support us. No worries.

Catherine: 1:15:23

We hope you enjoyed today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead. Brought to you by Critical Info. If you liked the episode, learnt something new, or were touched by a story you heard, we'd love for you to let us know. Send us an email, even tell your friends, subscribe so you don't miss out on new episodes. If you can spare a few moments, please rate and review us as it helps other people to find the show. Are you dying to know more? Stay up to date with Don't Be Caught Dead by signing up to our newsletter and follow us on social media. Head to don'tbecaughtdead. com for more information and loads of resources.