Don't Be Caught Dead

ENCORE: Eco-Friendly Farewells: Water Cremation's Splash in the Death Care Industry

• Catherine Ashton • Season 1 • Episode 49

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Ever wondered if there's a kinder way to say goodbye to your loved ones? Most of us are aware of burials and cremations, but have you heard of water cremation?  

Luke Cripps is a Director at Alluvium Water Cremations, established in 2023 with Director Brendan Cooper to bring a gentle, affordable, and eco-friendly method of final disposition to families in Tasmania, Australia. 

Luke has worked in the death space both practically and theoretically in Tasmania for the better part of a decade, and has a particular interest in the intersection of end-of-life practices and what it might mean to live well. 

Built on the founding principles of dignity, transparency, and sustainability, Alluvium Water Cremations are proud to support Tasmanian families to make informed choices around their end-of-life decisions.

In this eye-opening episode, we dive into the world of water cremation. Discover how this innovative process is revolutionising the way we approach death care in Australia.

Luke takes us on a fascinating journey through the ins and outs of water cremation, also known as alkaline hydrolysis. We explore how this process differs from traditional flame cremation and burial, and why many families are finding comfort in its gentler approach. From the soothing sound of trickling water to the preservation of more remains, water cremation offers a unique and environmentally friendly option for those looking to make mindful choices about their final disposition.

But it's not just about the science. Luke shares the challenges of bringing this new technology to Australia, navigating complex regulations, and the surprising reactions from families. We discuss the importance of informed consent in death care and how water cremation is opening up new conversations about choice and dignity in our final moments.


Key points from the episode:

  • Water cremation uses water and alkali instead of flame, resulting in a gentler process that many families find comforting
  • The process often returns 20-30% more remains to families compared to flame cremation
  • Alluvium Water Cremations is the first fully approved and regulated water cremation service in Australia
  • Water cremation can be integrated with traditional funeral services or used as a standalone option
  • The environmental impact is significantly low

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Podcast Editor: https://www.livvimusic.com/

Music composer: Ania Reynolds - https://www.aniareynolds.com/




Luke:

The fact that we do get more remains out of a water cremation than we do from a flame cremation, often 20 or 30 percent more, and that's more of the person that you loved being returned to. Now that is a big thing for lots of people, you know, maybe that doesn't make any difference whatsoever, but the nature of the process is slow, and in comparison to flame cremation, is gentle, I guess, on the remains. Because the reason you get 20 percent less out of a flame cremation is because of the introduction of an environment of heat at that temperature just flat out vaporizes more of those remains into non existence than a water cremation will.

Catherine:

Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life. Because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared. Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations and recognises their connection to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their Elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. Today, we are talking with Luke Cripps, the proud owner and operator of Alluvium Water Cremations, based in beautiful Southern Tasmania. Luke and Brenton, his co founders, journey began when they shared a love. of their home state and a deep appreciation for its breathtaking natural surroundings. As lifelong residents of Tasmania, Brendan and Luke have witnessed firsthand the unparalleled beauty and pristine environment that makes the place so special. And I think we can agree if we've ever traveled to Tasmania, it is a very beautiful place. They have written on their website that they're driven by passion for both Tasmania and sustainable death care practices. They founded Alluvia Water Cremations with a clear mission in mind, to provide a respectful and eco friendly alternative to flame based cremations. Today we have Luke with us, as I mentioned. Welcome to the show, Luke.

Luke:

Hi, Catherine. Thanks for having me.

Catherine:

Now, look, you and Brendan established Water Cremations in 2023, what is Water Cremation?

Luke:

Water Cremation is a method of final disposition where the human remains introduced to a water cremation device, into a water cremation device, and we add water and a small amount of alkali heat and time, and over a period of time, those remains will be essentially broken down into their sort of elemental components. And so what you're left with on the other side of that time period is mineral bone remains and a nutrient solution essentially. So the body's sort of chemical constituents.

Catherine:

And how long does that time frame take?

Luke:

That's a highly variable factor. No, highly variable is probably not right. Sort of, it 10 to 14 hours most of the time. Sometimes it's a bit quicker than that and sometimes it's a bit longer than that. And there's a few different things that affect how that happens.

Catherine:

And how long has water cremation been available as an option? Uh,

Luke:

well, I mean, that's an interesting question. It depends on, probably they wouldn't have been calling it water cremation den, but it was sort of the late 1900s when the, process of alkaline hydrolysis, which has been well known for a long time, which is what happens in a water cremation. It was being used in an agricultural context for a few different things, but one of those was exactly the same reason as we use them. We're using it with humans, which is breaking down animal remains in an agricultural context. But with the reference to humans, probably maybe the last 30 years, really. Is when that started to be something that people were looking at seriously.

Catherine:

And what country was leading the way in relation?

Luke:

Oh, that's a, that's a interesting story. So the story of water cremation or alkaline hydrolysis for humans begins with a couple of people called Joe Wilson and Sandy Sullivan. There's a two gentlemen that are working for the same company, doing a whole bunch of things in that company, but working on alkaline hydrolysis as a process was one of the things that they were working on there. And both of them sort of went, okay, well, we can see that this is something that would be useful for humans. And the, I guess the ecological impact of it is, is significantly less than a flame cremation or a burial. So, look, they had different ideas about what the best way to achieve that in terms of building a water promotion device for human use. And so you ended up with these two separate companies, one based out of the U. S. and one based out of Scotland. So you've got Resumation and Bioresponse Solutions.

Catherine:

Resumation, was it?

Luke:

Yeah, Resumation and Bioresponse Solutions,

Catherine:

which

Luke:

is based out of the U. S.

Catherine:

Yeah, okay. And so tell me, how did you get involved and interested in it? I

Luke:

mean, using the word career is probably too strong a term to reference the things that I've done in my life. Sort of my two professional interests have been death and disability for as far back as I can remember, and they're the only two spaces realistically I've, you know, I've worked in. So, I have worked in, I guess, direct disability support work right through to managing some various disability services in Tasmania and have also worked as a mortician at a local funeral home for the better part of a decade down here as well. So I have always had an interest in death and in disability and I guess in just margins. And limits and what that looks like for people and so yeah, I guess the story for how that connects to where we are right now is a conversation around a fire pit in our backyard with a friend of mine.

Catherine:

Wow. What did that conversation involve? And how much alcohol?

Luke:

Yeah, so Brendan and I, I mean, I've been friends for a number of years. So I am married to Kylie, my wife, and Brendan is married to Renee. We both have one daughter each. And so our daughters met on the first day of kindergarten at the school that they're at right now and have sort of been coming up. So they're nine turning 10 this year. And so we met, it must have been about five or six years ago. So I've been friends for a while and there's not loads and loads. Of morticians floating around and so, you know, when people are friends with someone who is involved in that kind of work, it's just sort of you talk a bit about it because people don't hear a lot about it and yeah, we'd sort of thrown a few ideas around in just in terms of things we thought would be really interesting to see happening in that death space. Sort of based on my experiences and Brendan's background is I guess technology and networking and that kind of thing and he and you know, it style stuff and so he sort of had a particular interest in emerging technology or technology that wasn't being used or things that hadn't been accessed before down here, but I guess the other side of that. was just that, yeah, we've both had significant experiences around death through our lives, and, you know, it doesn't take very long when you are close to someone who has died, or are seeing that happen for somebody else, for you to realize that there surely must be some things that we can do better around this, even for some of the best experiences that I can think of. And so yeah, it's sort of this like meeting of a few different things around wanting to see something different in the death space, wanting to see people offered. I'm wanting, you know, sort of ecological concerns around how can we do this better and how can we do this in a way that is Stewarding, you know, what we've been blessed to live with here, in a more responsible way. This is a really big one, I think. How can we bring something people, to people, that they can genuinely start to make choices around.

Catherine:

And obviously the custodianship of the land and the environment is a big motive of both of you. Yeah. And, um I'm not surprised given the fact that anyone who's been to Tasmania will be very much aware of how much wherever part of Tasmania you are, you're always reminded that you are part of nature and how small sometimes you are in relation to that. So how did you find out about alkaline hydrolysis? Was it through your role as a mortician?

Luke:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So a mortician, that's the primary title I'm probably responsible for at that funeral home. But if anyone's ever worked at particularly a smaller funeral home, you do end up very quickly with exposure to pretty well, all facets of the business, right? You know, sort of everybody needs to be capable of doing a little bit of everything sometimes. So I certainly had. plenty of exposure to, I guess, burial and cremation practices as well. And yeah, for a little while we had a look at even just what opening a flame crematorium would look like in Tasmania. But pretty quickly, there's a bunch of reasons why I don't think That's needed down here, but also pretty quickly just went like, this is not something that, yeah, really aligns with us, sort of, we think there must be a better way to do that.

Catherine:

But, um, tell me about some of those things that sit better with you and that moving towards the, away from the flame cremation and towards water cremation, what were those things that sort of prompted you to do that move?

Luke:

Yeah, so, I mean, in a really one on one sense, you'll find that quickly I'm not keen to beat around the bush on stuff, but like, it is simpler and cheaper to run a water cremation machine than it is to run a flame cremation machine at the end of the day. Sort of like all, once you account for everything that you need to do, as a business, there's an attractive part there for us going, okay, this actually makes more sense. So that sort of raises the question and did for us, sort of running a flame cremation Oh, you know, spreadsheet after spreadsheet, going like, okay, well, why wouldn't somebody have done this before then? If this looks like it makes sense, but also aligns in all these other ways. So why hasn't, how haven't we got here yet? And that sort of, I think, leads into a much broader discussion around just the death space and how death and funerals and funeral homes work. And yeah, be super keen to have that chat. But essentially, and it weirdly connects to disability actually for me as well. So. In disability, like in the disability theory and in the space for stop, we have this sort of, it's everywhere, I guess, but it's really, really relevant for disability. When we talk about what actually informed consent means for people, um, what does it mean for somebody to genuinely make a choice about something? And historically. For people with disability in Australia that, you know, you'd be hard pressed to suggest that people genuinely have had in, you know, we have had informed consent for the things that we have done and to, done with and to people with disability in Australia over the last few decades or forever really. And in the death space, I think it's. pretty relevant as well. We have seen a shift in Australia and across the world, but you know, if you can look at it in Australia pretty easily, in how death is done. And I don't think that that shift has come from the community itself. I don't think that has primarily been, driven by people's, sort of, what does exist, which is a natural uncomfortability often with talking about or thinking about or dealing with death. I think that, yeah, it's better thought of as the result of sort of successive decisions by, I guess, undertakers originally and then funeral homes as they became. A thing to, you know, partially driven by making money, which is fine. But sometimes when we're making those decisions around how to make money, we don't fully appreciate the sort of wider sociological impact of what sort of scale looks like in those decisions eventually. And so I guess what I'm getting at here is we get to a situation today where Where families, often just people, full stop, have no exposure to what happens from the moment somebody dies onwards. It's not a, you know, the death literacy isn't as great around even pre death or palliative care or anything like that, don't get me wrong, but certainly from that point of death, you know, it's like a black box. It's just a phone call is made, usually under, sadly, quite a lot of pressure. Pressure, depending on what, how, you know, the circumstances of the death, a phone call is made back end, like everything from then on families are just sort of like along for a ride and often it's not until months afterwards that they sort of are able to sit back and go, right, well, what was, you know, what was all that about? For me, this notion of informed consent is really important and being able, informed consent enables people to make genuine choices and choices that reflect who they are and what they want to do. with themselves. So at a really, like a really basic level, just the most exciting thing about alkaline hydrolysis, or I like the term water cremation for a few reasons, but about water cremation is just that it's genuinely an option that is now there in that market space for people and they can make a choice about it. And they don't sort of get handed two things. There weren't always Only ever two choices to begin with, actually. There have been more over time, but it's only sort of the people with either sort of a high degree of death literacy prior to needing to deal with that that have been able to access it, or people who just have a particular tenacity and ability to get stuck into finding out how to do what they really want to do. Yeah. But I think the thing about water cremation is that it really does sit right alongside everything else in a way that's easily accessible and yeah, has the ability to serve a whole bunch of needs, I think.

Catherine:

And let's talk about how it differs from flooding cremation in all different aspects. Yeah,

Luke:

for sure. One of the things that Brendan and I have been realising really, really quickly, and I think it's a function for me personally, I can only speak from where you are, but for me, I think one of the things that's become obvious to me is, I guess, death literacy just isn't as high as we thought it was, or as I thought it was. So again, I'll draw a parallel to sort of the disability space. I presented a paper at a conference a couple of years ago on employment and disability and how we think about employment for people with disability and why we see the rates that we do for of employment for people with disability. And it was an interesting moment and it was a semi controversial, it's not quite the right word, but it was a bit of a tricky moment in that conference because I felt and feel like we do know why people with disability often don't end up in employment, but in the space, and this is. The more relevant part here, in the disability space, we have a way of working with and thinking about people with disability is really beautiful, but that doesn't necessarily reflect the rest of the culture. And when you're sort of just constantly in that space, you can fall into a bit of a trap of assuming that everyone else in Society and the world around you is sort of on the same page. And then you go out there and you're like, Oh no, they're not, not by a long shot. I think it was a similar thing around death for me. I was like, okay, the people that I spend time with and the things that I do and the work that I do sort of maybe had me assuming that people knew more than they did. So the answer for differences between flame cremation and water cremation is hard to start talking about without talking about flame cremation. Because lots and lots of people don't really understand even what a flame cremation is. And that's become very, very obvious. And so I think lots of people just have this idea in their head that it's very, very similar to whatever they would see in a movie, which is that maybe there's a wall and a door opens up and somebody goes in and the door closes. And often instantly, actually, there's a thing that is really common. The heat is so hot that it's instantly, what we end up with is this sort of neat, small pile of ash, which, yeah, just, I was going to say couldn't be farther from the truth. It's not couldn't be farther from the truth. It's there. It's just, there's a lot of things that go on in a flame cremation that people don't fully appreciate.

Catherine:

Yeah. And I think that as you were saying is that previously about just that distance that we have. We generally, historically, have engaged someone, we make the phone call, we engage them, the body is removed from where it needs to be and then the next time you really see the body, maybe at the funeral, or it may just be returned to you in two little boxes, cardboard boxes, in a nice carry bag. With a card. And that's all people really need to see and maybe people don't think much more of that. But

Luke:

there is

Catherine:

a whole process, isn't there, Luke?

Luke:

Absolutely. Yeah, there are a lot of things that happen between that first call and between, or even between that first call and somebody, being cremated. But even the process, you know, I think for reasons that will become more obvious as we talk. Yeah. I just think it's important to think of cremation as a process. It's sort of not a discrete event that happens. Um, there's quite a few things that happen in a cremation, both for water and flame. And some of those things are the same. And some of those things are a little bit different. Some of them are drastically different.

Catherine:

So maybe do you want to talk us through that process and perhaps draw parallels between the two?

Luke:

Absolutely. Yeah. So when we talk about a flame cremation, and I'm, again, I will suggest I'm only, I'm speaking from, I guess, Tasmania here. So there are different flame cremators around, but I do know the Tasmanian space and the flame cremators that are used down here are not dissimilar to a large fireplace or a large pizza oven style thing. So it is a chamber built with fire bricks. to retain heat and they typically have one, sometimes a couple of large flame vents that are run on either LP or natural gas. And so in one sense, it's a very simple thing, right? It's as simple as people imagine it, which is that somebody goes in there and those flame vents are turned on and the temperature is raised and maintained in there, usually anywhere from like sort of 900 to 1000 degrees. a thousand degrees, sometimes Celsius. And then what is left is ash. And ash is a whole conversation as well. In practice, what people often don't really understand is that just the nature of how these are designed is it's just a very active process of flame cremation. So running a flame cremation or as a cremator operator is kind of an active process of being there and being involved in opening and shutting the door and maintaining temperature. And, I guess moving remains through flame as well. And so, you know, you're talking about using things like a rake to ensure that you can make sure that every part of the body has been accessed by a flame, not just as an ambient environment, but directly by the flame from vents as well. And yeah, it's what you end up with at the end of that process is I guess what we would call mineral bone. remains, primarily calcium phosphate or calcium sulfate. And those bone remains are visibly human bone, typically. So that's something that I think people often don't understand because when we talk about a process of cremation, we don't get ash from the cremator itself, I guess. So, you know, you have these visibly human bones that are often broken up and fragmented and they're, they're swept into a pile and then taken out of a flame cremator and then processed into what we refer to as ash now. In terms of drawing parallels to water cremation, the several steps are exactly the same. So we have a person that's introduced to a cremator. Which in our case is a machine built by Bioresponse Solutions. And instead of gas, we're using water, essentially. So water fills up in that chamber to a certain level, and that's determined by a number of factors prior to someone going in. And then we also introduce an alkali salt, which is potassium hydroxide. That water is then heated, not boiling, but to hot, certainly, to about 93 to 95. 95 degrees and the water is circulated through that machine over and over and over so that water is flowing over those remains and when you introduce heat and alkalinity and water flow particularly to anything that is, you know, a protein based compound, a process of alkaline hydrolysis happens. Which is that those sort of hydrogen bombs are broken down by that process. And actually what some people don't really understand, lots of people think that it's the alkali that's doing the work, but it's sort of like the alkali is providing an environment for the work to happen. The work is actually happening through the flow of water, those molecules hitting one another in the right kind of environment over and over again. Through water flow is what allows those bonds to break down and then the bonds that don't break down that are left in the cremator Exactly what we get out of a flame cremation, which is calcium phosphate almost always calcium phosphate in alkaline hydrolysis Plus anything else that won't break down like hips and implants and pacemakers and things like that that'll come out as well

Catherine:

I know when You have to do flame cremation. You need to remove pacemakers because of

Luke:

the

Catherine:

battery. Do you have to do that in an alkaline hydrolysis process?

Luke:

No, we don't. And again, yeah, it's a great point. To raise because in, yeah, in a flame cremation, we can't, I don't actually know how serious it is. I struggle to imagine it to be an enormous issue, given what's actually going on inside a flame cremator, a tiny battery goes bang, but it certainly is standard practice everywhere in Australia. And maybe there was something that happened at some point that. meant that we put this into legislation, but it is standard practice that if someone is being cremated by flame and they have an implanted medical device that is powered, so a pacemaker and there are some other things as well, sometimes, that that needs to be removed prior to that person being cremated. And that's one of the last things that gets checked, actually, prior to someone being cremated.

Catherine:

Yeah, right. And tell me, Luke, we've got the bones, regardless of whether we've been through alkaline hydrolysis or flame cremation, what then happens?

Luke:

Well, I think it is. I think the coolest term for that is it's bone shadow. What you have.

Catherine:

Bone shadow? I haven't heard that one

Luke:

before. Yeah, that's the one that I like best because I think it gives the right image to people and the right way to conceptualize what comes back as well, which is like the shadow of bone. It is visibly bone in the same way that your shadow is visibly your shadow, right? But there's nothing in it anymore really that makes it bone. It is a, it is a, it is a mineral or a compound like a molecule. So it's calcium phosphate bone shadow. So both in flame cremation and water cremation, you will get this bone shadow that comes back out of the machine that does come from your loved one, that is them, that is a piece of them. And it's particularly visibly human when it comes out of the process of water cremation. And it's helpful understanding how that flame cremation has gone up until now to understand why the remains that come out of there, why the bone shadow that comes out of there is quite small and chipped and fragmented. And typically out of a water cremation, it's pretty visibly whole bones that come out of it. And well, then we have to. process them. So everybody knows that we get ash back from a cremation. And so that goes into what must be the most heavy metal name for a device in the history of the world. I think we can imagine someone, some black metal band in Norway calling themselves cremulator and having it all designed up wonderfully. It'd be pretty cool. But yeah, it goes into what's called a cremulator. So those bone fragments or bone shadow or mineral bone remains, whatever. The term that you enjoy the most. It's collected up and placed into a cremulator. Which is not really a straightforward way to describe it except it's kind of like a blender. Basically like it is a machine that has a receptacle. I don't know what you'd call it actually because they're not really blades. They're not sharp, but. Yeah, especially like pulverizing blades, grinding blades, essentially. And we switch that on until those remains are kind of finally powdered. And that completes the sort of conceptual way that we think about ash. Cause now when that returns to a family and they open that up and they go to spread ashes, they go, yeah, this makes sense. This is ash. This is what ash looks like. Cause I've cleaned a fireplace out before, I know what ash is. In a very, very real sense, neither what comes out of a flame cremation and what comes out of a water cremation, neither of these things probably are ash in the conventionally understood way. Even from a flame cremation, we've got to wrap our heads around because the heat is so hot in a flame cremation that we don't get ash out of that process, like ash is vaporized. What we think of as ash out of our fireplace wouldn't be in there if we'd had it that hot.

Catherine:

Yeah, right. And what's interesting that Again, it's that sort of detachment that we don't really know about this process. I know that I certainly didn't until I started asking a few questions and had attended a few sessions. To be honest, I hadn't thought of the process, but what I have read about is also something that has done in Japan is where they allow. the process to be cremated. And then they use, there's a ritual which they have where they actually go through the bones, don't they, and with chopsticks and it's a family ritual, isn't it?

Luke:

I haven't heard of this before, but this is exciting for me to hear, but it makes perfect sense to me because it's not us yet. And of course they could do something of that nature.

Catherine:

Yeah. What's

Luke:

the purpose of them going through? Like, is it?

Catherine:

It's to reclaim their loved ones, Ashes or, you know, and putting them in a larger urn, so not your cardboard box that you get, but putting them in a larger urn and then still taking them home, but just in the compound form that still is replicating what a bone looks like. Yet here in Australia, that's my understanding is we're not allowed to do that. It has to be. Yeah,

Luke:

I'll take it under advisement. That one of the comment about whether it's legal or not. I think it's a, our legislation is different in every state. I don't think it's well studied in Tasmania, what has to go on there, but I suspect, There certainly would be a tacit assumption underpinning most of our legislation that when we refer to remains that go back to a family, that they are in that form.

Catherine:

Yeah.

Luke:

And I guess for me that raises questions about what, you know, how have we gotten to a point where nobody, where people don't understand that about the process? And there's a, I think most people when you speak to them about it, interested. They would like to know about that and they are interested to hear about it. Probably, you know, clearly not enough to go and do a bunch of reading all by themselves because they're not as, you know, pretty as me, but they are certainly interested and are not really upset by hearing that. It makes sense when you lay it out that this is what you would have to do and this is how it works. So for me, that, you know, that raises questions around how we have gotten to the point where nobody knows that stuff anymore. And I would be difficult to verify, but I would suspect that early days in cremation, when cremation was first introduced in Australia, people would have been more aware of that, about every part of that process. But that might be something for me to go and have a look at. Because I think there's lost knowledge there. People did used to be a lot closer to and more involved in what happened post death than they are now. I know, for example, that it used to be pretty common practice for work experience for people in school to go and do work experience at a funeral home or in a military. It was not uncommon in any way. But if you were to try and float that today. Approach your local high school and go, right, I'm going to do work experience at a mortuary. Yeah, I think the response would be different and it certainly doesn't happen. Anymore. Well, not in Tasmania, anyway.

Catherine:

But isn't that a shame? Yeah. A hundred

Luke:

percent.

Catherine:

Because it's just a valid career as any other that's on the

Luke:

table. Yes. A hundred percent. Valid career as much as anything else is. But also the knowledge that is lost from that, from not having people exposed at any point in their life all the way up until they're just forced to deal with it because they're sitting with someone that they love who's died. Like that's the point that people might, you know, mostly come into contact with this. And my argument. And my concern would be that the only people that derive any benefit from that lack of knowledge, sort of very big, well established funeral homes who, yeah, don't need to have anything questioned about how they do things. And not because I'm not trying to indicate there's anything. inherently untoward about what's going on in a regular stock standard funeral home at all. It's just that, you know, when what passes for innovation is like, do you want egg sandwiches or salad sandwiches at the wake in this space? You know, anything that is slightly outside of the, I guess, the flow chart for what we do from first call through to returning of ashes. is a cost to a funeral home. So the less people that ask for anything out of the ordinary, the less we have to be concerned that we have to spend any more money on a particular service. And so it doesn't need to come from some specific kind of like cabal, like, you know, malicious place. It's just, that's how doing business the way we have done it. As you know, that's where it's gotten us to where people just go, okay, well, I get on the phone and they ask me a set of questions and I answer them and I assume that all of the questions they're asking me are because I'm required to answer those questions as well, or I'm required to do the things that those questions are to do with, like have a funeral in the first place, for instance, and For me, that's not putting the family at the centre of the process, which surely has to be amongst the most important things that we're thinking through when we're talking about death.

Catherine:

Yeah, there's a few things that come to mind as you're talking, and I think historically, you know, when you think that we used to have funerals at home, and that was the whole reason why Apollo was in a house. And the room was the parlor because that was where you used to lay out the dead and people used to, you know, grieve and, and, and pay their condolences. And then you're right now that we've moved from, you know, I suppose what we do with a lot of things is outsource our death care. And so it's, it's someone that's automatically called, that has probably taken care of a family funeral previously, might have been a grandparent. So it's just a, okay, well, they did it. Good job last time, so we'll use the same. And I think when I was faced with our friend dying in February last year, and there was no precedent, and I was trying to show the kids, because they were coming over from the States. And I'm like, what are the options? And that was difficult because there was no one place to show them what were the legal options available to them. And again, you know, when I had a focus group, a girlfriend of mine said to me, I would have an idea what to do when a loved one dies. And hence why I developed the guide. So there is something to help people take them through those steps and those decisions so they can then make informed choices. Because. Otherwise we're very vulnerable and we'll just fall to a default position. Now, like you were saying, it doesn't necessarily reflect the person who's just dying.

Luke:

It raises a couple of things for me. So when we make decisions, and this just goes to how our brains work, our brains work. Often very, very differently to the way we imagine they do. So often we'll make a decision or have an experience and then retroactively fit back across that a set of reasons for why that was the case, right? So X thing happens to us, we respond Y way, but then the story that we fit back over that is usually, yeah, it's to do with our self conception and how we. How we imagine we think and feel and move in the world sounds really unrelated, but the reason I'm raising it is that often it made me think of it when you're talking about, I go to the last funeral home that I went to a funeral at, and I think to myself, well, they did a really lovely service or more pertinently, I go to where the last place I booked a funeral at, and they did a lovely service for me. There's like a weird dissonance for people to acknowledge that they weren't happy with. How things went, because once it's a bit of a, kind of like an odd sunk cost fallacy thing going on for them, where it feels almost disrespectful to not be pleased with the service that was given to you. And so you sort of, you've spent the money and you've had the funeral and you sort of like, well, that's all done now. So it was lovely. When often what I have found is the more that you speak to people about what their experience of a funeral was or how they felt about it. Yeah, if you give them a little bit of time, they'll start to share with you the things that, you know, in retrospect, I wish we could have done X or Y, or this is what happened and we wish it had been the other way. But look, at the end of the day, and then they'll start, they'll come straight back and start trying to go, well, you know, but look, it was really lovely. It was, it was wonderful. And the people, it's great to see so many people there or whatever it happened to be. And I just see that as a really, it's just a sad thing for me to say that that's where we've gotten to, that people, yeah, just don't have the knowledge that they They need, at the right time, to make those choices. And then I sort of sat with that. Like that it's one of those things that you don't get to do again. So you can. There's a particular weight to it at the time. So you can absolutely, you know, go and throw a funeral again 10 years later and do it the way you want it to do. But yeah, there's something about being able to get that done at the right time that feels significant for people. And again, my concern there is that that's somehow best for the family, and I just don't see that as best for the family. But the other side of the Retroactively fitting a story back across things is one of the things that people fall into all the time is that this is how things are done at the moment. So there must be reasons that they are done that way because we assume that things make sense and they don't always make sense in the way that we assume they do. So, you know, we used to do funerals at home and we had a funeral parlor. And often if you talk to people, and I have talked to people about this kind of thing, they will give you a set of intuitive reasons for why that might not be the case anymore. And typically they couldn't be further from the truth. Which is that there existed a market opportunity, recognized by undertakers originally, to go well, we can take care of this part of the process for the families that want to take care of it. And again, nothing about this needs to be malicious at all. It's just a recognized opportunity to go, okay, cool, people are doing this at home, like we can do this somewhere that they like to do it, or we can go to the church that they used to go to and we can arrange all of that for them. And so now we reflect back on that and go, we come up with reasons like, you know, it must have been a health hazard to have somebody in the home and people needed to be taken out of the home or the children were deeply traumatised by. The deceased being at home for a few days, so we need to, we need to remove that and keep children out of the process. And none of those things reflect how that went down, like how that actually happened. And those end up being stumbling blocks for people thinking through what they want now, because they're sort of operating on this set of assumptions around why things are the way they are, which, yeah. Often couldn't be further from the truth. One of the most exciting things and every state in Australia is different, but Tasmania is amongst the places in Australia where, tell me what you want to do. Like we can, it's not much that's off the table if you want to do something different.

Catherine:

And I definitely think that everyone should be asking those questions wherever they are in the world. Australia or the world, to be perfectly honest. You know, if you feel like you want to do something and honor your loved one in a particular way, just ask. And interestingly enough, the funeral directors that I have spoken to, any funeral directors who, interestingly enough, talking about The fact that you know, you know, no longer can have work experience students, you know, they've been funeral directors that have actually taken over from their parents. So it's actually become a legacy that they've taken on. And perhaps because, you know, there was a lack of. work experience students. Um, but they've been very open to make sure that funerals are more personalized now and that there are options on the table, which is great. But what you were saying before, Luke, in relation to people's ability or way in which to minimise perhaps complex grief that can happen after a funeral. It is a report that Bare Funerals did in 2022 called State of the Nation and it was, talked exactly what you were, were just mentioning about the fact that people surveyed were hesitant to question. Prices or shop around because they thought it was disrespectful and dishonoring their loved one. And also people were really hesitant to give negative feedback. So, yeah, and we can include that research as part of this show notes for this, this particular episode, but you're totally right.

Luke:

Yeah. Again, there are different ways and different perspectives on who a funeral is for and what a funeral should be about, but it does seem to me that Whether you are someone who believes that a funeral should be a reflection of the exact wishes of the person who has died or whether you think a funeral is primarily to do with those who are living and how they want to remember and how they want to process that experience. Of those two things, the, one of the things that doesn't show up on that list is whatever is the simplest and easiest for the funeral home or funeral director that you are speaking with. And I guess that's. Fundamentally, my only point on all of that stuff, which is that Yeah, you can ask questions and you can certainly, you know, have a conversation about price, but that 100 percent is something that people are, people are uncomfortable to do that anyway. But particularly around death, there's sort of a whole bunch of associated sort of emotional and cultural reasons for why that feels, you know, uncomfortable. You know, not okay. And certainly for Tasmanians, I would suggest that if you are wanting to do a certain thing, or you want to see a type of service, or you want to have a particular kind of experience, and you are getting, you know, some pushback or some reticence to, if not, you know, if not get it done, or then at least give you pretty clear and straightforward reasons why it couldn't be, then yeah, I guess my steer would just be to keep asking. Call the next person and ask them, because there's certainly a lot that could be done in that space if people wanted to. From a, sort of like a legislative and regulation level, 100%, there's all sorts of things that people could do if they would like. It's a pretty lame web introduction.

Catherine:

I thought it might be good to perhaps do a bit of rapid fire questions. Maybe some you know, questions that people might have in relation to water cremation and the process.

Luke:

So,

Catherine:

can anyone use your services in Australia?

Luke:

Theoretically, yes. In practice, that is more complex. The two things that influence that, state by state legislation on the movement of remains by air, actually, it's probably an important point. And the other one is just the cost that that adds to everything. So, the answer is yes, you could, if you gave me a call from anywhere in Australia, and like, this is what I would like to do, this is what my loved one wanted. A water cremation and Tasmania is the place that I want to go and get that done. It's absolutely able to be arranged, but it often, for a bunch of reasons, ends up extraordinarily expensive. That's up to the family to decide. What I'm uncomfortable about that is there's a lot of costs associated with that, that I don't have any influence on as someone involved with alluvium, that there are only certain things that we really have any influence on in terms of what things cost. That's not one of them. Um, Yes, theoretically, for sure. The reasons for that are, just really quickly, so people understand that the different states have different legislation around repatriation, and typically when we're talking about repatriation, we're talking about by air, and there's very specific legislation in most states around how someone needs to be prepared to travel by air. Whether that's especially legitimate or should have been written the way that it is, is an open question. Certainly repatriation overseas is a bit more complex, but that's to do with the length of travel. Within Australia, it's sort of harder to see the justification for that, but typically, for example, you'll see that somebody needs to be embalmed to travel by air, and that there are a bunch of requirements around encoffining for traveling by air that are different from sort of day to day requirements. And just those two things alone, before you start talking about the actual cost of moving. You know, those remains as in just freighting those remains or whoever you're working with in the place that you are to arrange all of this and their time and whatever their costs are around managing that side of things. Yeah. It just ends up very, very expensive very quickly.

Catherine:

And so if someone was in Tasmania, if we take the repatriation out of it and the

Luke:

travel,

Catherine:

would they need to purchase a

Luke:

coffin? No. In fact, that's a really, it's a good question. It comes up for people most commonly when they're talking about a situation whereby I want a funeral, but I also want a water cremation. And that's probably important to distinguish for us, particularly, actually, given that we've spent a lot of time talking about funeral practices, which is Super interesting to me and I love talking about it, but ironic given that Olivium don't do funerals and aren't interested in doing funerals. It's not what we are here to provide for people. There are people in Tasmania that are doing an incredible job in that space and It's, it's not an area for us, but they don't need to purchase a coffin when they're speaking with us. And in actual fact, we can't do anything with a coffin because a coffin will not break down in the process of water cremation. So that does leave a bit of a tricky kind of thing there, which we don't actually have a really straightforward answer to yet. I'm afraid it's early days for it. It's an emerging conversation with existing funeral homes in Tasmania. Around, okay, what we would like, we have people that are speaking to us that are interested in a water cremation, but typically for a funeral, we would sell that family a coffin. What are we to do with this conundrum?

Catherine:

Well, look, just so the listeners are aware, I'm looking at Luke. And he has a coffin just behind him, so you've got a spare one there, Luke.

Luke:

I do have a spare one there. I do. I got as a prop for a birthday party a while ago, actually. It's a really funny story about children and death, which is that I had that coffin for a birthday party. And there were lots of people that came along to that party and it was lovely of them to do so and jumped inside and took photos and hung out in it and we had a bunch of death themed cocktails and bits and pieces which was, you know, a whole lot of fun. Anyway, then they The children that were at that party were also mucking around and climbing in and out of the coffin and so they ended up marking the coffin. So what I had, what started as a borrowed coffin ended up as a coffin that I had to purchase. So now I have a coffin and I don't have a flank cremator to do anything with it. So what I will do eventually is turn it into a bookshelf of some kind, but I just haven't quite gotten to that yet.

Catherine:

That's great.

Luke:

But the funniest story is I was cleaning out this office, which you will be able to see. But it's, it's a lot cleaner now than it has been in a while. But when I was recently cleaning this out, it still has some work to go. I moved the coffin into the hallway behind me. And then my daughter, who is nine, was adamant that she wanted to have the coffin on her bed because she wanted to sleep in it that night.

Catherine:

I can see why, that's appealing.

Luke:

Yeah, it's like a, I think it falls into the cubby space for her.

Catherine:

Yeah, totally.

Luke:

Anyway, so I do have a photo floating around of her. Asleep in a coffin, which she has fitted out with all of her blankets and books and teddies and is dozing happily, which is pretty fun. It was a weird bear moment where I was kind of cold on all my stuff. I was like, is this good parenting? I'm not a hundred percent sure, but is this one going to come up in therapy in 15 years time? My dad let me sleep in the coffin in my bed when I was nine and what on earth was he doing? I don't know. She loved it. I

Catherine:

think there'd be far more damaging things, Luke. I think you're okay. Okay,

Luke:

you might be right on that point.

Catherine:

Now tell me, what has been the response from the public? Because you've only really been open, what, a month, a month and a half now?

Luke:

Yeah, this would be week five.

Catherine:

Yeah, right. I

Luke:

think, yeah, maybe, well, maybe it's week six. Yeah, I'm not 100 percent sure. All a little bit of a blur from that point.

Catherine:

Yeah.

Luke:

I mean, the response has been astonishingly positive. And I say astonishingly, because I think, uh, both Brendan and I, Throughout the year that it took us to get open, anticipated pushback on a whole variety of levels. That just never quite materialized and the kinds of pushback we did get came from places that we never really anticipated and were actually sort of like really boring, annoying, procedural, administrative things rather than anything really significant about what we were doing specifically.

Catherine:

And just on that approval process, what did you have to go through?

Luke:

Oh, look, I. One of the things I've noticed about my life is that I, for one reason or another, have ended up being somebody that is quite skilled at finding the people that I need to speak to and asking them to help on things that I don't understand or I'm not very well equipped to deal with. And having people happy to do that with me and for me in my life. That's

Catherine:

a very good

Luke:

quality. Yeah, it's, well, yeah, I guess so. And Brendan and I are both people with a lot of connections across the Tasmanian community. And so, the reason I say that is that it ended up being a particularly complex process trying to get this approved. Much, much more than we anticipated when we first started. And us getting there was the result of both of us relying on support and advice and help from a whole range of people, depending on the particular wrinkle that had occurred that what felt like daily at some points. So, yeah, I just want to make that clear, but the process itself was, it was challenging because in Tasmania, the Berylline Cremation Regulations were last updated or the act was. Last updated in 2015, the regulations were last updated in 2019. And that's pretty recent for burial and cremation legislation. Like prior to that, I don't know when that actually, I should check when the last one was before that, but like the fifties or something like that. So very recently updated the office of local government in Tasmania who administer that act. It's not always that. Different state by state. And you know, so that was literally the first phone call. And Matt was there to say, Hey, I know that we need approval from the regulator to be able to open a crematorium. This is the crematorium that we want to open. Our reading of the legislation leads us to believe that that. Should be okay, under existing, under the act as it exists and the regulations as they exist. And they agreed with us. This all looks fairly straightforward at the end of the day. And so in our heads, we're sort of looking at like maybe three or four month lead time. Got applications to do, things to write, space to find, like all of these kinds of things. And in reality, what ended up happening was a couple of things. You can't apply in Tasmania for a contract. Approval to manage a crematorium unless you've got a crematorium for them to approve.

Catherine:

Oh, so you have to do it

Luke:

retrospectively? Well, side by side at the very least. Oh right. And so that was complex financially because that sort of meant at the least a base level we had to have a lease on a building and that again is more complex than it sounds because It's not just go and get a lease on a building, but you need to be fairly confident that you can put a crematorium in that building. You know, just all, it all gets very complicated very quickly and also costly very quickly. So we were kind of, we were going along okay. And we had an excellent landlord who we'd sort of sat down and had a conversation with and gone, okay, well, this is the building that we want. And we're going to use this for a bunch of these applications. And you know, that there's several different stakeholders that applications have to go to in Tasmania. And he was pretty good. Hey. Sort of, well, very good, really sort of just let us sort of earmark the building and just didn't rent it out to anyone else for a few months, just seemed confident that we would come through and when we're serious, which we were, so it was very kind of him, but it did get to a point where he's kind of like, okay, well kind of, do you want it or not? And at every stage of this process, we felt like maybe like this could be the week, which isn't pretty taxing space to be in for 12 months, nearly. Like this might work if we can get this thing through that we're being led to understand this is the last thing we need to get done. And so what ended up being complex was the legislation as it existed. And this is why it was quite funny talking to you earlier about ash. Legislation as it existed said in Tasmania is the reduction of human remains to ash by a process involving the application of heat or flame or by any other method approved by the minister having the administration of the Public Health Act or by any other prescribed means. Thanks.

Catherine:

Yeah, right. So

Luke:

that was the definition, which if you like, pass that sentence out, and with all of your semicolons and commas and all the rest of it, it basically says cremations, whatever we say it is. And it was written that way specifically for alkaline hydrolysis. So in 2015, when they updated that act, and you can go and have a look at the Hansard extracts of when that act was being debated. That was what was being talked about, that at some point in the future, we know that alkaline hydrolysis is Probably the next thing coming down range. But there's a couple of other different methods of commotion that were sort of floated around that have never really come to fruition or anything being done with them. And so they're like, we'll write it this way because that'll capture that. So when someone applies to do this, we don't have to go and change anything.

Catherine:

Gee, that was good.

Luke:

Well, yes, it was. It certainly gave us confidence at the beginning, but it turned out not to be the case. Which is that it didn't fit under the existing definition as far as they were concerned, eventually. And the whole, that all hinged on what we call hash. And I guess my fundamental argument is that You know, either what comes out of a flame cremation and what comes out of a water cremation are both ash, or neither of them are ash, but certainly one is not ash and the other is not, sort of. And we did end up with some, it went all the way to the Solicitor General twice in Tasmania during this process, for clarification on the definitions of terms and interpretation of the Act. But yeah, in the end, we came down to the Office of Local Government suggesting that it would be more expedient to Change the existing regulations to specifically name up alkaline hydrolysis. And it would be to continue to argue about whether it fit under the definition of ash.

Catherine:

Wow. Who would have thought that comes down to that? And tell me, alkaline hydrolysis has been in Australia in some form. Is that right? Before you've opened alluvium. What makes alluvium unique?

Luke:

So, as we talked about, at the end of the day, you know, alkaline hydrolysis is a well known process, scientifically, it's been around for a long time. There have been a lot of people over the years that have identified that this could have use in the, what we now call the water, what we're calling water cremation. Um, in. final disposition of humans. And when you are talking about a process is being placed alongside burial and cremation matches in the relevant areas, what is being accomplished by burial or cremation. It's not a really simple thing to design a water cremator that achieves that. Let's start out by saying that. So then you have, as I talked to you about, Earlier, you have a couple of people that have sort of emerged as, as far as basically anyone will be able to find, I think, the two world leaders in terms of building these units that hit those metrics and the kind of metrics that you would want to see for so many reasons are you want to be confident that the water that's left over from the process is sterile, there is no DNA or RNA left in there, there's nothing identifiably human or identifiable in that water from the person that it came from. And you need to be confident about that with the remains themselves as well.

Catherine:

And what happens to the Waterloo?

Luke:

When we talk about the approvals process for us down here, that and the variety of stakeholders, We, we, you end up with a bit of a triangle in Tasmania for water cremation specifically, which is that you need the office of local government to approve the crematorium and your ability to manage the crematorium. You need the local council to be satisfied that I guess the building and the establishment is safe. And they're sort of like the final point really in some senses, they're like that is safe and has ticked all of the other boxes. But the third one is the state water regulator, you need to have had approval from the state water regulator. Regulator around what you're doing because you are accessing and then discharging water from and into their systems in one way or another. And that's important for, you know, just that's in the interest of public health that you have done that you have had them come to the table on being confident about what this process is and that the unit that you're using is doing those things. Is

Catherine:

that the thing that makes you unique? I

Luke:

think so. Yeah. Well, I don't think so. I, I know, I know that for a fact that at that level, alkaline hydrolysis as a method of final disposition for human beings in Australia has never been offered in a place where both, where all three of those things have been satisfied and certainly not under any existing legislation for sure. But the water regulator is a big one because the water regulator of those parties is the one who fundamentally is taking responsibility for public health in that situation and for confirming. and validating the claims that are made by us at Alluvium as operators of a water crematorium,

Catherine:

yeah,

Luke:

would not be able to get regulator approval from TASWater, for instance, unless they were satisfied that what we were producing was safe and was non toxic and was not classified as biohazardous or medical waste. So that was, again, an enormous undertaking to take them through all of that. that and help them understand that and then provide them with all of the information and verifications that they needed to be able to be comfortable with that. And when I say an enormous process, not because they were in any way uncomfortable with it, but just because it's important for those things to be clear and to be established. And so whilst it was extraordinarily challenging to work through, just in terms of time and the various pressures that were, you know, Going on at that, during that process for us, it is something that we're really, really proud of and we hope can give families confidence that when they're reaching out to us, they are reaching out to someone who has certainly left no stone unturned in ensuring that, yeah, their loved ones are taken care of in the way that they expect.

Catherine:

It must also provide that foundation that you really have all the checks and balances in place that you are the true stewards for the environment that you had hoped to do.

Luke:

Absolutely, 100%. Yeah, you know, if you spend any time, and you clearly have, but for anyone else, like if you spend any time on our website or on any of the stuff that we have online, you'll see that the things, I think the three things that are the most important to us are around dignity for families, and that comes down to dignity is more than just the method of final disposition, dignity is around being able to have choice and being able to be confident and informed in what those choices are, that forms part of that thing for us, but also responsibility. Absolutely. Absolutely. Sustainability clearly, but transparency is the last one, which is being able to be confident that we have receipts or the claims that we're making. And there's nothing about our process or about who we are or about facilities or anything of that nature that people aren't able to access if they would like to.

Catherine:

And just can you tell me, we've got three comparisons now, obviously, that I suppose are the mainstream or could be, you know, mainstream options within Australia. You've got burial, flame cremation, water cremation. We've got a few outliners, or outliers I should say, but let's just stick with these three. What is the difference? Why would someone choose water cremation in comparison to the other two?

Luke:

I think the answer to that surprises me as well because it's not the answer I expected when we, you know, when Brendan and I were looking at this. We spent a lot of time talking about the environmental impact of water cremation and that being certainly a big part of the driver for us in offering that and anticipating that that would be a driver for families as well. It turns out we are finding increasingly that the driver is Is more to do with the process itself than it is to do with the ecological benefits of it. And the word that comes up for people all of the time, which is someone who's worked in the despots for a long time is surprising to me, is gentle. That's a word that comes to mind for a lot of people. And when I say that, I say that with a caveat because in just the same way that families have a response around feeling that the process represents something that is gentle for their loved one, you've got another subsection of the community. Who couldn't think of anything that they would want to do less, like really strong, you know, dichotomous response to it, which, to be honest, is probably just the case across death, full stop, which is that people just have, when confronted with it, have really strong feelings, often one way or the other. on something and having only had two significant options in the living memory of anyone in Australia that's just been assumed that it's dichotomous that like you are either a burial person or a cremation person and we all know that they're the only two options. The interesting thing for me is watching a third option that's Related to one of those two, but I think does stand on its own and seeing that same split. And so then you realize, okay, the splits around just people's feelings around death and bodies and how I feel about any process represents to me, irrespective of, you know, what we're talking about. So that's really interesting. The fact that it's, people see it and I was about to say, see it, it is a surprising term to me. But I think recognize it as gentle and there's a, I guess I'm pretty, I can be a bit data driven and a bit straightforward about things when I'm thinking through this stuff and I go like, Oh, does gentle really match up with this here? And you know, how comfortable am I using the word gentle and being confident that I'm being honest in that? And I think that it is. And some of the things that you can point to, to demonstrate that are things like the fact that we do get more remains out of a water cremation than we do from a flame cremation. Often 20 or 30 percent more, and that's 20 or 30 percent more of the person that you loved being returned to you. Now that is a big thing for some people. For lots of people, you know, maybe that doesn't make any difference whatsoever. But the nature of the process is slow and in comparison to flame cremation, you know, it is gentle, I guess, on the remains. Because the reason you get 20 percent less out of a flame cremation is because of the introduction of an environment of heat at that temperature just flat out vaporizes more of those remains into non existence than a water cremation will.

Catherine:

And it's interesting that people find it more gentle. And the imagery, when you were talking about it earlier, Luke, was the importance of the flow of water. And what it reminds me of is how even rock over a period of time in a riverbed is always actually slowly eroded away by that force of water. That's what comes to my mind when you spoke about that. So I can see how I feel with that imagery. It does give me a sense of more gentle process. and flowing water. So I can see why.

Luke:

And one of the funniest things about that, just in terms of like real like specific stuff about Brendan and I at Alluvium, which is that the first process that we completed, first person that accessed water cremation in Tasmania and Australia, frankly, depending on how you want to think about that, were, you know, we closed the door on the unit and then, Press the start button and the first thing we heard and both of us just like stopped and looked at one another when it happened was kind of cool, but it sounded like a trickling stream. It was the most unreal sound and it's not, I would argue it's not been designed to sound like that. That's just the nature of how that machine feels water, but it was a really oddly beautiful moment where I was like, Oh, like that. Yeah, this matches with a lot of what a family would think about this, actually, I think.

Catherine:

So therefore, this leads to my next question about certain cultural and religious organizations or groups have an affinity with water and the role of water plays in ritual and death. Do you see perhaps those people being more interested in water cremation? If

Luke:

I'm really honest with you, this is a question I'm not. As well prepared on as I probably should have been. What I can tell you from just straight out from practice and from talking with people is that I have come across less people that have a specific cultural or religious affinity with water that are interested than I have of people with specific associations with flame that are not interested, which makes sense to me. Or burial that are not interested. Yeah. So it's not the greatest answer for that question for you. I'm really sorry, but there are certain religious and cultural places where, where it is just burial is the option. That's what you do. And others where flame is just the option and that's all that is available and all that is okay. All of those people feel comfortable with probably the Catholic church and water cremation is a really interesting one. Apart from that, I don't have as much to come back for on that one.

Catherine:

Well, maybe can you come back, you know, this time next year and we can see where things are at, because, you know, I asked you to come on six weeks in, so I'd be really fascinated to see, you know, what sort of trends you find and, you know, what are your, Aspirations for the future. What are you and Brendan looking at doing?

Luke:

Well, you are right that you've got us about six weeks in. So I think even the notion of thinking about the future is,

Catherine:

Sorry, it's too early.

Luke:

No, no, no, no. It's, yeah, I would put it this way. We have been very, Encouraged by the immediate and initial uptake of families and trusting their loved ones to us, which has been absolutely beautiful and honestly a privilege. And there have been parts of that process that Brendan and I have been involved with that have caught us by surprise of some of the beautiful things that we get to be a part of that we probably hadn't really thought about that much because. We are essentially a direct cremation, well not essentially, we just are a direct cremation service. We're not doing those memorials and funerals and those things where you get to spend a lot of time with families and hear from and find out about their worlds. One of the things I'm really excited about is the idea that, and this comes from experience in the death space, full stop, is that even for a direct cremation, for those families who just make a call and go, I would like you to take care of my nan, and then just return me the ashes, that's all I need. What excites me is I know how much more beautiful that process can be. For that family and is often available in the space at the moment that doesn't have to be an embarrassing or viewed as a budget or uncaring option for a family there is so much that can be built into that and done for those families in those moments that I would like to say so when I think about the future and I have spent a lot of time talking about the fact that. What we would love to see is for this to be something that a family can be really proud to do for their loved one. Not just accessing water, but even just the process of being proud of doing just a direct cremation and then choosing to celebrate or memorialize in a way that means something to them. So yeah, that's one of the things that I think is exciting about the future. I think there's a lot of interest interstate in accessing what we're offering at Alluvium. Yeah, Brendan and I spent A bit of time over the last couple of weeks. Like I said, probably in a way that surprises me. Just trying to think through what that could look like. So that's why sort of answering that question earlier too, was coming from that place. I was going, right, I've actually spent quite a bit of time in this at the moment, trying to figure out a solution for those families who do want to access that. And yeah, watch this space. I think we've got, we do have some things I think will be accessible. They're not finalized yet. So we'll find out.

Catherine:

So it sounds like you and Brendan are very much open to having conversations with families and discussing with them what they have in mind.

Luke:

Absolutely. A hundred percent. And I think that's a really important, like, it's quite funny because I think you sent me a few questions that you had for me and some of those have been taken, I guess, from the FAQs that we had on our website. The actual questions that have been asked of us over and over again are questions that have surprised us. You know, who would have thought having spent my entire career working with people. Like that people would surprise you by being different to how you expected them to be. But I think the kinds of questions they have, and one of the ones that came up that I think is really important for people to understand and was important for Brendan and I when we were setting this up, we are able to offer sort of an end to end service for people. When they book something with us, that conversation can start. We're not doing prepaid stuff presently, but that conversation can start pre need for a family. And then we have had several of those. Happened recently and we can be the first phone call that is made and we can take care of every piece of that process all The way up until return of ashes and a few things beyond that as well Actually that you know families will benefit from not quite talking about yet But I think yeah, it will be really beautiful, but often people think okay I want a water cremation But I need to call the funeral home and then tell them that I need a water cremation and you can absolutely do that We have worked with people on that. If it is just that service that you want, we can do that thing end to end. If it is something around the funeral or memorialization, we can tap in and out of any part of that process. If you would like someone, you know, and there are some absolutely stunning independent funeral directors down here. And there is a couple of places at the sort of bigger and more well established funeral homes. There's a couple out of them that are just some of the most beautiful people. Like, they are there to help you and to support you. You can contact any of those people and we'll work with them. That's absolutely fine. And we can tap in and out of that process. If you go, well, I want, you know, I feel more comfortable with Luke and Brendan picking up and taking care of my loved one until the funeral. And then I want the funeral home to pick them up and do a funeral. And then I want them going back to Luke and Brendan. And then I want an auto cremation. We can do that. Or I want the funeral home to pick them up and do everything all the way up until they need to be promoted. And then I'll get Luke and Brandon to go pick them up. Like at any part you can sort of switch and take out or put in, depending on what you're comfortable with as a family.

Catherine:

Well, that sounds like a wonderful option that you're willing to evolve and work with, you know, whatever the family's need for their loved ones. And so much for bringing Alluvium to Australia. And I really hope to see it spread throughout every state.

Luke:

That would be exciting, although there's a part of me that Yes, imagines what that process would be like and

Catherine:

it's okay, you can, you'll be able to delegate Luke.

Luke:

Yeah.

Catherine:

Well, thank you so much for being with us and I can't wait to speak to you this time next year and see how things are going.

Luke:

Amazing. Yeah, thank you so much for having me as well. I really appreciate it.

Catherine:

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