ENCORE: The Future of Funerals: Insights from Kelly Scott, President of Australian Funeral Directors Association

Ever wondered what it’s like to grow up in a family of funeral directors? Join me as I chat with Kelly Scott, the General Manager of T.J. Scott and Son Funeral Directors in the Macedon Ranges.

Kelly shares her unique journey, insights on dealing with death, and the profound importance of family and community in the funeral industry.

Kelly Scott, a fourth-generation funeral director, takes us through the fascinating and often misunderstood world of funeral services. Kelly, who joined the family business over 30 years ago, shares her experiences growing up around the funeral home, how she and her family approach death with sensitivity and respect, and the evolving nature of funerals in modern times.

Growing up in a funeral home might seem unusual to many, but for Kelly, it was just part of life. She recounts her childhood experiences, from family dinners interrupted by the phone ringing to her initial misconceptions about her father’s work. Despite the ever-present nature of death in their lives, Kelly’s family maintained a clear boundary between work and home, respecting the privacy of those they served.

As Kelly delved into the funeral industry, she discovered her passion for helping families during their most difficult times. She talks about the importance of personalised funerals and how small touches, like playing a loved one's favourite music or involving families in the care of the deceased, can make a significant difference. Kelly’s dedication to her work is evident as she describes the joy she finds in supporting families and ensuring that every funeral is a meaningful and comforting experience.

Key Points:

• Childhood in a Funeral Home: 
  • Kelly describes growing up in the only funeral home in Kyneton.
  • Early misconceptions about her father's work and the privacy maintained by her family.
• Joining the Family Business: 
  • Kelly’s journey into the funeral industry, starting with administrative tasks.
  • The natural progression from nursing to funeral directing.
• Personalising Funerals: 
  • The importance of making funerals personal and reflective of the deceased's life.
  • Examples of unique touches, such as custom image-wrapped coffins and incorporating personal items.
• Professional Insights: 

• Kelly’s role as the President of the Austra

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Music composer: Ania Reynolds - https://www.aniareynolds.com/

Transcript

Catherine: 0:03

And what direction or improvements would you like to see under your, your term as president of

Kelly: 0:10

AFDA? Oh, another great question. I think I'm really passionate about learning and about continued learning. So as my dad said, we always had that. idea that you never stop learning. And we've just introduced, the AFDA has just introduced an online funeral learning hub because a lot of our members are really remote. So to get to in person training is near on impossible and very costly, you know, to get to major cities or regional cities. So this is an Australian first, it's world class, um, that's in the UK and New Zealand as well. And it's only exclusively available to our AFDA members. And it is. An incredible collection of training and learning that we can do together as members.

Catherine: 0:56

Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life. Because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared. Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations. and recognises their connection to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their Elders, past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. Kelly Scott is the General Manager of TJ Scott Son Funeral Directors based in the Macedon Ranges, Victoria. It's a family business which was established by her great grandfather Thomas John Scott in 1938. She works alongside her father John Scott and brother Daniel and has joined the profession in 1990 over 30 years ago. Kelly is president of the Australian Funeral Directors Association. Thank you for joining us Kelly.

Kelly: 2:08

Thanks so much for having me Catherine.

Catherine: 2:11

Now what was it like growing up as a child with your family running the only funeral home in

Kelly: 2:19

It's funny, it's just what you know, isn't it? It's like anything else. But it's something that was all around us all the time. So family functions and lunches at my grandparents house, the phone would ring, everyone would be quiet, we'd answer a call. So it was always around us, we were very conscious of it. Yet at the same time, funnily enough, it was never forced on us. It was not one of those things that we were kept, oh, you're going to join the family business, you know, you and your brother or anything like that. It was, in fact, it was almost the other way. We had to show interest in it later in life to sort of show dad that we were interested in coming along board. So that was really interesting, but it's interesting growing up knowing you, Your dad does something quite important. You can see that it's important, but you don't really understand what is involved. In fact, I probably thought he was like what I thought was an air traffic controller out in front of the plane. I remember seeing him walking in front of a hearse once. I thought, Oh, that's what he does. He walks in front of a hearse and tells it where to go. So that was when I was very little. So it is funny how you have those misconceptions and, you know, don't really understand. So he didn't really bring work home. with him. It wasn't something talked about. The sanctity of people's privacy was paramount, my grandparents instilled that in us. So it's not something that was discussed at home openly because that would be, you know, it stopped protecting people's privacy, but it was very much all around. We were very aware that at any time Dad could be called out and need to go and help a family.

Catherine: 3:49

So there's just yourself and your brother, Daniel.

Kelly: 3:52

That's right.

Catherine: 3:54

And you say that you, it wasn't discussed at home. The work wasn't discussed at home. Was death discussed at home and planning for your own sort of death?

Kelly: 4:03

Absolutely. So those sorts of conversations, you'd hear about cemeteries and cremations and coffins and at my grandparents house, they used to have the home office there. So families would come to my grandparents home and they would meet with my granddad or my dad, and there was a coffin. display room in my grandparents house in one of the bedrooms. So we used to run past for all the time. And again, we weren't allowed in because my grandfather was very respectful of, you know, all that. So there's no, you know, shenanigans, but it was very much a part of that. So, and my, my grandparents were very open about things like wills and who was getting what, because they saw families in crisis and fighting over those little things. So everyone knew. Where my grandparents were going to be buried and what the funeral was going to be like. And those sorts of conversations were very, very open in our family. So, which was really different. So I don't know what that's like not to have those conversations.

Catherine: 5:00

No, I'm, I'm similar. My father was a, a clerk of courts in the coroner's court. So I, I grew up just always expecting that you had a will at the age of 18. And, and so like, I didn't know any different until I met my husband and, uh, and that was totally different. So tell me at what point in time did you go, okay, I think I need to prove to dad that I'd like to be involved in the family business.

Kelly: 5:31

I don't know exactly what age I expressed that interest, but it was quite early. I used to go where our building is now, when we first bought this, it was an old Baptist church here in Kyneton, and we did it up a little bit to start with, it's been fully renovated since. And I remember coming here after school and cleaning, you know, just, you know, organizing the kitchen and making sure his desk was tidy, very fascinated. And it was probably because There weren't any women that I knew of in the funeral industry. Now I say that, of course, understanding that my grandmother was very much involved in our family business behind the scenes, but as a person at the front arranging funerals, you know, conducting funerals, that, that was certainly wasn't my nana. So I think it was almost a bit of a, well, I don't think I can, so I will, you know, and I was very interested in, in doing something that that I didn't think was something that was possible. A lot of our women in our family are nurses. So to me, that, that segue is quite a natural segue from nursing to fetal directing in many ways. Uh, first and foremost is the care of the deceased. That's the most important thing we do. Forget all the other bells and whistles. It's looking after someone who has died for a family and being entrusted with care. With that care is the most important thing we do and it's something that's been instilled in me since I first started. So I expressed an interest to dad and he said, you know, go off and do your, there's no room for you here yet. And there was literally just my dad and my uncle working at that time together, you know, and my grandparents still had the phone, well into their eighties. And then I went, so I started nursing and one day dad rang me and said, you always said you'd like to do this. I need someone there. So it's okay if you don't want to, but before I put it out there, would you be interested in coming to work for me? And I left uni for Friday and started work Monday. So it was an easy decision and one I've never regretted.

Catherine: 7:24

And how old were you when you were at uni?

Kelly: 7:26

18. Yeah, first year of uni. Yeah, I was living in Melbourne and, and, uh, yeah, it was just, I don't know. I just knew that that was what I wanted to do and I've never, never regretted it, I must say, even though I still love a hospital. Isn't that funny? I do . I love, I love nursing. I love that whole deal idea of it. But what I get to do that most of the nurses I know can't get. Do it this time, because I don't have time. You spend time with the patients. Whereas here, being a family business, if I need to spend all day with the family, I can spend all day with them. You know, there's no time limits. And that's what I love about the work that we do.

Catherine: 8:08

Oh, that's really beautiful. I hadn't Thought about it like that, the fact that you actually do get to take care of your clients for as long as you want to, where yeah, very much people, healthcare workers don't, are very time poor in relation to that.

Kelly: 8:22

Oh, they don't have the time. It's not their fault because I think that's the best part of what they do. And they, You know, as I said, the nurses I know complain about the fact they don't have that one on one time with the patients as much as they used to. And so I think, Oh, I really would miss that because that's what I, when I first did my nursing placements, I used to love, especially being with older people, cause I was very close to grandparents. I could sit there and talk to them for hours. And to me, that's an integral part of partner. Understanding what they need in a hospitable environment.

Catherine: 8:52

And tell me, what were your first tasks that you were brought in to, to help dad with?

Kelly: 8:57

Was certainly, probably more administrative. It probably wasn't his strong suit. He's very much a people person and out and about. So, very much, uh, Answering the phones, doing accounts, that sort of thing. And he really, now that I look back, he really eased me into it. I think he probably protected me early on from some of the more, um, confronting situations that might have, well, gosh, this isn't for me. And he, but at the same time, there was dad and uncle and myself. So you're thrown into it. You have to be able to learn to do everything because there's only three of us. doing that. So it is a little bit of a baptism of fire in a small, very small family business, but it's great to learn everything from the ground up. And even with our staff now. I would say when they come in, everyone cleans the toilets, everyone washes the hearses, everyone vacuums the floors, and that's including me, and I've been doing this 34 years, but we have to, all of that's part of caring for a family, making sure that everything's ready for a family to come in to say goodbye to a loved one, so it was really good having that really hard grounding, and he certainly, you know, made sure we knew how to do everything. Yeah, along the way.

Catherine: 12:49

Was there anything in particular that your dad really wanted for you to take on board, uh, about the business? I know that I've spoken to another funeral director down in, in Gippsland in sale and, and he was saying that his mum was really particular about him learning exactly what you were saying, how to, you know, wash the hearse, how to vacuum, clean the toilets. You know, really be involved in it, uh, always to, to be super clean and, and tidy and make everything very presentable. What was, there's something your dad might've been particular about?

Kelly: 13:29

Neatness to my dad is very important and as is important in the back of house as it is the front of house. So we've always had that idea that if families want to come and help care for a loved one they can. So our premises need to be just as beautiful. We're at the back of the house, as people would refer to it, but we're a mortuary, as I said, where the most important thing happens is the care of a deceased person. So if families want to come in and be part of that care, we need to have that presentable all the time. So vehicles are, you know, always beautifully clean. So it's very much about having a really presentable place for people to come and feel comfortable. And that feeling of comfort. resounded. So making sure people have time with you. That was, he said, never rush an arrangement. So that was really, really important for him. And I think that's why even now he still works at 75, mainly as a celebrant for families because he knows so many people and people know him and feel comfortable with him. So I think those two things were always Just take your time with the family, get to know them if we don't already. And of course, a lot of the times we do, but really spend that time with them and make sure they feel as comfortable as possible in a really uncomfortable environment, like in place in your life. It's really, you know, it can be really traumatic. It can be really sad. So when people come in, you want them to feel As comfortable as possible.

Catherine: 14:58

And what are the things or the qualities that you find in the service that, that you deliver that you believe are the most important things for when dealing with families and organizing a funeral?

Kelly: 15:11

I think some of those things do come with experience and we'll talk about the benefit of having an association behind you because if you don't know something, I've got a plethora of people around the country I can ask, which is amazing. And I've done that many, many times. But I think what, what I offer, what, what our family offers. is I think genuine care. We're really here to help make it a positive experience, even when it's the most awful experience you ever have to go through. When the funeral experience itself is positive, and by that I mean a family feels autonomous, they feel in control of their decisions. Sometimes that's saying to them, just wait, don't make that decision just yet, because you can tell They're not quite ready to. Guiding them through, you know, it's, it's funny, I think about what we call as feudal directors, I think, gee, we're not really directing anything. We're just supporting, guiding where necessary, you know, offering choices, that sort of thing. So I think just having that gentle guidance, teasing out information, When sometimes that's really difficult, sometimes families come to you and they can't even speak let alone make decisions. So, you know, gently asking them a few questions. Say, well, what did dad enjoy doing? How did he spend his time? What did he like doing with his, you know, his hands? Was he crafty? Did he like to go camping? You know, did mum like to sew? Did she listen to music? And then from that, those conversations are the most important Where was mum born? Where did dad go to school? Those things are obviously necessary, but to me just finding a little bit about who we're looking after helps everything, even when there's no funeral service. We need to know who we're looking after. We give that information to whoever's going to be caring for their loved one in the mortuary. Say, Oh, I heard Beryl loved to sing jazz music. So we might play jazz music in the mortuary while we're completing that care. So to me, those little touch points that some people will never ever be aware that we do. But I think that's, that's our point of difference because we know it in ourselves, that's what we do.

Catherine: 17:24

That's lovely to think that, uh, there'll be, you know, jazz music being played, uh, when someone's being taken care of, uh, you know, I, I really love that, that it has a very nice imagery in my mind. And you mentioned earlier that you ensure that the back of house is just as tidy as the front of house. In case someone wants to care for their, their, their loved one. Was that referring to in the, in the mortuary?

Kelly: 17:52

Yeah, so whilst we have to protect the privacy of other people in our care, so sometimes that care we might bring the person out to our chapel area, have that really nice and intimate for a family to come in and help complete care, so washing. Dressing, hair, makeup, shaving. You know, families want to be part of that care, they absolutely can. Because we always say, we're looking after them for you. So you let us know as much or as little as you want us to do. We go into quite, quite detailed conversations about, well, you know, I mean, Ups, many of us ladies are very particular about our little chin hair that pokes up. So we might, you know, we're moving facial hair, little things like that. Do you want to paint our nails? Touch up a bit of color on their hair. And they're like, do you go to that much trouble? I said, if this was important to them, absolutely we do. Because, and then some of them go, Oh no, they didn't wear it. They were very low key, you know, just a lovely, just lovely and clean. That's fine. So it's, it's lovely to have those conversations. So they know that that care. That's how we look at that care. It's so important and keeping with what that person did during their life, because to me it's still part of their loved one's lives to know that that's being done. So, those conversations are really important. I think over time we've got better at that. I think when I first started, people didn't, maybe weren't curious, um, didn't ask the questions. And now we know sometimes you just have to lead into them a little bit and then opens up that conversation. So, again, just, just like what you're doing with the website, Catherine, it's just opening up the conversations and, and letting people know that they can ask more. Whatever they want, you know, there's no such thing as a silly question.

Catherine: 19:35

Exactly. Exactly. And have you noticed that people over time, as you said, you know, 30 years ago, it would be very different to, you know, the things that you notice now. Have you noticed that people are actively seeking to be more involved or more personalized in their service as time's gone on?

Kelly: 19:56

I think the important thing we always have to remember is Everyone is different, so that level of participation is very different for every family, and within each family, it's very different. So some families will be wondering, Oh, we definitely don't want a viewing. And then you can sort of see maybe the brothers over you going, Oh, I'm not, I'm not saying no to that just yet. So it's really trying to tease out what people are comfortable with. I mean, you know, looking at the research that we did through MacRindle, I think about 50 percent of people die in hospital. So that care is there. out of our hands a lot of the time before they, before people even come to us. Whereas even when I started that those statistics weren't so high, people were still at home a lot longer and would have died at home more than they do now. So that care's a little bit different, but knowing You know, having those conversations with family to say, you can still have a loved one at home. That's perfectly okay. But be mindful of these changes that happens after a person dies. Just be made aware of the biological changes that would happen within us that are completely natural and normal. And if we can assist with that, that's, you know, okay. Or bringing them into our care, just slow that, that process down a little bit. To allow for people to come and see them, you know, a few days later. So, understanding that process is really important. You know, just say, oh yeah, your loved one can be home. But not having that understanding that that means maybe a viewing might not be possible on day seven or eight. Because, you There's no refrigeration or other means that, um, just slows that process down. So understanding what a family needs from the get go is really important. And having those conversations around, do you want to be part of their care? Sometimes it's not. And again, some children wouldn't necessarily want to bathe their own parents. That's something that wouldn't be done. And the parent themselves would not be comfortable with that. Some people are very open to that. So my aunties looked after my nan because they're very kind. you know, in nursing and that was very much part of their family. So we've always done that. But for some families that wouldn't be appropriate. So they're very happy for us to do it, but they like the fact that we talk to them about it. So they know, and they're saying yes to this, no to that. Yes, mum would have liked that. No, she wouldn't have liked that. So they're more involved in that care rather than just We don't discuss it, just provide clothing and that's it. So I think them understanding that, you know, everyone in our care is prepared as if you are coming in for a viewing. That's been done since my grandfather was in the business. He started, so that's always been very an important thing that we discuss with families.

Catherine: 22:43

And I know there was such diversity even with my own family, so I totally appreciate that. And for me personally, I know that it's depended on my relationship with my loved one who's died as well, whether it's someone that I, I've lost. I do want to actually have a viewing of, or I, I don't. So, uh, yeah, I can imagine that there is a lot of, a lot of diversity in, in that process of, of working out what family wants to do. Now, Kelly, you're the second woman to be elected national president of the Australian Funeral Directors Association. Tell me how that came about.

Kelly: 23:21

Our family business has always been a member of the AFDA and it's just something that. I've grown up with, Dad's always talked about the importance of being part of something bigger than ourselves. And I think that's for a lot of reasons, he's certainly always instilled in us the need to give back to the industry and to each other and to the community at large. So a lot of the time that work is, you know, we're ambassadors for grieving families in lots of ways. Sometimes we're the ones saying, this is what grieving families need, or this is what they don't need. don't need. So being part of an association that can have some influence, particularly with government, is really important. So, you know, having that ability to lobby government for important things is good as a collective. But to me, being part of an association like the AFDA, which is the largest in Australia, and we're in every state and territory, means I've got A wealth of information at a phone call that I can, and I've done this many times as dad has, we learn from each other all the time. And you'll be at a meeting or some function and someone will talk about it and go, Oh, and then two months later, that person had the same situation or something similar. I'm just going to give them a ring and just ask them what they did in that situation. Because as much as people think funerals are a traditional industry and I don't know, it's, we've heard the term cookie cutter and everything, I think, goodness me, they don't work in it if I say that, because it's certainly not. It's so different. And there's, you know, we love those curly questions. We think, oh, okay, haven't heard that one before. So what do we do? And not just thinking we know everything. And I remember my dad saying, years and years ago, the minute you think you know everything, Move on, get out, because you never know everything, because every family that we deal with teaches us something. And that's the beauty of what we do, I think. So association's been really important to our family business, and to us as individuals, as a wonderful support for our business. But I think, I think personally, as much as anything else as well, a lot of people would never understand. The responsibility you bear doing this sort of work. And there's so much involved that you could never speak about to other people because that would be a breach of privacy or something like there's lots of things I don't even take home to mind because you're protecting the privacy of the people you're looking after, but sometimes to be able to. Unload a little bit to people who get it. Sometimes you don't have to say, you just go, Oh, I had this situation and it was a funeral for, you know, a nine month old baby. And you don't, they just know. They just know. And to have that support, I'm telling you, that's why I think I'm doing what I'm doing 34 years later. Because I've had this from the very earliest time of my life. career with dad, he introduced me to people so he would, I would develop my own network of support. And we do that all the time. And it's, it's quite powerful, I think, and just the learning from each other is amazing.

Catherine: 26:29

And when, How did it come about that you, were you nominated for president? How does that process happen within the association?

Kelly: 26:40

We have divisional councils as well. So each state and territory have their own division. So where you could be an active member and go to all the education training sessions, functions, et cetera. Then you might nominate for council just to sit around your divisional council. That's how I started. Dan had always done that. So it felt like a natural progression for me. And again, that's, You're taking time out of your business for the wider industry and for other members. So that seemed like a natural progression. So you just get nominated to council and we have in Victoria, it's divided up so you have a really good cross section of regional, rural and metro members, both large and small businesses. So you have a really good cross section and from that council, they nominate an executive on that council. So you have a divisional precedent. The senior vice president, et cetera. And so then you'll do things, and so I've served in that role as well as Victorian president, which I absolutely love because to me, that's the divisional councils. That's the whole face things. That's meeting with BDM and the coroner's court and the department of health and really making sure they understand, you know, what we need to do and how we need to support families. So that's all those sort of really key things. everyday things that affect our business every day. And then from your divisional council, you can get nominated to national council. So again, that's representatives from every state and territory, both large and small businesses, both metro and regional members. So that's a council of 15 people from around the country, and you get nominated to go onto that council. So I'm representing Victoria. I'm not representing T. J. Scott and Sunday Our Business. I'm representing our Victorian members. And you really have to make sure you're wearing the right hat because I'm not there for the benefit of my business. I'm there for the benefit of all of our membership. So, then, once you're on National Council, I was lucky enough to be nominated to go on to the executive and, and here I am. And when were you,

Catherine: 28:40

when were you elected to the role of president?

Kelly: 28:43

Uh, just over a year ago. So I'm halfway through my two year term.

Catherine: 28:47

Fantastic. And tell me just on that process of being elected and just to give me an idea of the, the makeup of the association. So is it predominantly male, female mix? What, what sort of?

Kelly: 29:04

It's a good, again, I've come from a very traditionally male dominated industry, and I think someone was talking about a later study, I think it might have been in New Zealand, to say majority of staff in funeral businesses now are female, and we're certainly seeing that even at management level. And at ownership level. So around the council, it's a good mix. Um, but yeah, not that long ago it was, it was all men. So it's great to see that diversity at the moment and national council executive. Um, there are three women. So the next two presidents after me are female. So it's. Yeah, it's great to see. Yeah, but you know, I'm it's all about equality and having that great balance is my way of thinking.

Catherine: 29:52

And do you, what sort of qualities do you think that you bring as? I suppose a woman and also someone from a regional funeral home, uh, to the role at a national level.

Kelly: 30:07

That's a great question, Catherine, because I think everyone has their pros and cons probably. And probably what I, I lack in business acumen, I always call myself a funeral director first as much as we're running a business here, probably one thing I offer is that I'm still at the coalface. I'm still arranging funerals. I'm still cleaning hearses, you know, so I know what it's like for, for staff. I know what it's like to run a business, to be responsible for staff, to make sure our business is sustainable, that we can employ them next week and that we're here for our families and our community. So, you know, you've got all different levels. And I think just having Probably years of experience, but also an incredible support from my family. And it started with my dad, who never, ever made me feel like, Oh, it's going to be harder for you because you're fair. It was like, this is what you're doing off you go, you know, and, and he's been a great support where, you know, very lucky. I'm sure not everyone has this at a family business and I belong to family business Australia as well. So I know this doesn't always happen, but I've got a dad who always says, you know, You know, I'll come with him with an idea that, yeah, great. Yeah, go with it. You know, fantastic. That was easy. So, you know, he's really supportive, really encouraging, loves to see both my brother and I, you know, going in, you know, keeping the business going and, and contributing to AFDA as well. So he loves to see that, um, involvement. He really thinks. It's bigger than, it's bigger than us.

Catherine: 31:35

And what direction or improvements would you like to see under your, your term as president of AFDA?

Kelly: 31:43

Oh, another great question. I think I'm really passionate about learning and about continued learning. So as. My dad said we always had that idea that you'd never stop learning. And we've just introduced the FDA has just introduced it online funeral learning hub, because a lot of our members are really remote. So to get to in person training is near on impossible and very costly, you know, to get to major cities or regional cities. So this is an Australian first it's world class. Um, that's in the UK and New Zealand as well. And it's only exclusively available to our AGM members. And it is an incredible collection of training and learning that we can do together as members. So my, my goal over this time is to We've now got that in and everyone can get onto it. Now it's encouraging every member to utilise that because, you know, it's a massive resource that we've put a lot of time and money into for our members. That's what they asked for. They wanted more opportunities for learning. But how do we engage every single member, no matter where they are? No matter what size they are, and it's amazing to see the uptake of people already onto that funeral learning home, so it's, it's just incredible and it's just a wonderful way to, you know, share information and, you know, whilst we all offer that, that funeral care. We do all do it in different ways. So we all have our own policies and procedures in our own business, but there's some things that are just universal and that, you know, AFTA, we have our code of ethics and conduct and those sort of things are just reiterated time and time again, why we're here, why these standards are so, so important. And when those standards aren't there, because we're not a regulated industry, you know, this is where the cracks appeared, you know, can, can, um, come about. So it's really important. All our staff, all our teams know the importance of why you're an AFDA member because we have to maintain these standards at all costs. So our families get the best experience possible.

Catherine: 33:52

I saw in, uh, I think it was one of the research papers you did with McRindle about the fact that your members had actually requested professional development. It was something that was, I think, one of the highest things that they, they were after. I think it was about 22. And I have to say when I. First was reaching out to industry associations last year. Uh, I was really impressed, I think, coming from a state government background. I'm very familiar with compliance training and and the importance of compliance training on and completing our modules. I think we used to do about 13 per year. But it really is important. But yet only the flip side of that, I've also, you know, my husband runs a decorative painting business. So I understand the difficulty of that compliance. when you're actually a small business because you can't implement it yourself. It's very difficult. So I was super impressed when I saw that platform last year. Uh, and yeah, it, it, it just seems, you know, providing a need that, you know, would be very costly to actually get if it

Kelly: 35:01

wasn't there. Well, most, most of our members would never be able to implement. Probably even, you know, anything like that for sure, and even our largest members, you know, have already got things in place, but they're loving it because we're learning from a big, again, from a bigger source of, of information, and it's a lot of shared information, a lot of, um, people that are contributing to that funeral learning hub. are people from our membership who have got great experience in certain areas and and listening to their stories like you're just not ticking a box you're actually getting this person telling you about this experience they've had and for some people who don't get to those in person um opportunities to be able to learn and listen from people who are willing to support and help you. And as I said, and they could just as easily turn around and offer them something. So it's never just a one way street. And I think the learning hub will only get stronger. I mean, it's started with so many modules, it's going to be added to over the, over the years. And we're already responding to people going, Oh, I'd love to see this on it. So it's just, I'm, I'm just so thrilled about it because it is, One of the biggest things our members asked for was opportunities and COVID really shut a lot of that down because so much of our training was in person. So to come up with that, and that's thanks to our CEO, Dale Gilson, who's done a lot of research into what we could do. And as I said, a lot of people went, all this is, it's increased our, you know, the cost of being a member. You know, when I look at what it costs to give my staff this excellent training for our team, as I said, it's negligible compared to if I had to try and implement that myself. So for all of our members, I think it's such an, it's such a valuable tool.

Catherine: 36:41

And tell me what, what is involved in the membership of, and joining Australian Funeral Directors Association? You know, what do you do? I, you mentioned a little bit about advocating earlier on. Obviously we've touched on professional development. Why is membership important?

Kelly: 37:01

The A& T is a member association. So it's there to support members. And I think. As you said, there's lots of parts to what we do. I mean, we're here to promote the value of the funeral. And a lot of people think, oh, that's having a big service. And it doesn't necessarily mean that. I think COVID showed us that even when they're beautiful and small and intimate, they could be just as powerful and special. But it is acknowledging the fact that For thousands of years people have gathered when someone's died and there is a reason why, that importance of acknowledging when someone has died. And I don't often say sometimes it's not someone we love, sometimes it's someone we've had a really difficult relationship with, but some things need to be shared and acknowledged at a time of loss and grief. So we try and promote the value of that coming together, you know, and even when we, we're doing what we call a no service cremation, we always have a viewing or a vigil with a family the night before, so they have time to connect with their loved one in their physical presence. Not, if they don't want a viewing, that's fine, but just sitting with the coffin, I think, can be just as helpful. So having those opportunities together, to have that support. I think I read, I think it was on one of those pages, it was the National COVID 19 Bereavement study they did afterwards, you know, said something about when we were restricted, we couldn't have family and friends around us. You know, how people felt that lack of support and felt like it didn't even happen. And I've had, we know this, I've seen this over years, I've had, I remember one lady distinctly coming in to see me, she came to pick up her husband's, her loved one's cremated remains. And, She said, I said, Oh, here you go. It doesn't even feel real. No one's come up to me because no one knows. He didn't want a funeral. It just means now I don't get any support. And I thought there's got to be something said around that because we need, people need that, I think someone's excuse to say I'm so sorry. But if they don't see it, or it's not advertised, or there's nothing, it's really hard to say, oh, perhaps they don't want to talk about it. Perhaps we better not mention it. And it's just like it never happened. And I think we need to be really careful of that. And I think COVID showed us that because when families couldn't do what they wanted to do, the extra layer, of grief and trauma, I think. I think it won't be understood for many years to come. I really believe that. So we talk about the value of the funeral. That's really important. And we talk about having professional standards. As I mentioned, it's not a regulated industry. So people could start up with literally no premises and maybe a vehicle. And people don't understand that when it's a low cost funeral. I think. And that's why, you know, when we look at the infrastructure, we, we have to provide for the families we're looking after. They would expect nothing less in our community that they are top notch and the best we could possibly offer. Those sorts of things, of course, have a cost behind them. But if you don't have that infrastructure or staff or the education around it, of course your costs could be lower. So it's understanding what your, you know, those standards must be maintained. We must offer the families the very, very best. of care. And that means having all that infrastructure behind us to support us, to make sure we're doing it as well as possible. Also as safely as possible, you know, not just for us, but the people we're looking after. I think that's. Absolutely imperative. So I think having those certain standards of premises, vehicle, equipment, you must have continued develop, professional development to be a member. So there are some future directors who couldn't be members of ours because they would not be able to meet our standards. But as I said, we're the largest in, in Australia because most people want to be part of that team. Um, self regulation and to make sure there are some standards. Probably the wider community aren't aware of that. That's our job to let people know what the difference is. But I think it's the intangible benefit of membership that people will, you don't have to say you're an AFDA Because our standards are so high, that's because we're an AFTA member. We, we're rising to standards. We're looking at each other and they say, oh we've just got this new vehicle and this great lifter and oh that's fantastic. Great, we'll look at doing that. That looks like a really good option. So I think those sort of things make us better, better carers. for the community in what we do because we're part of something bigger.

Catherine: 41:26

And I would think that also if you're an organization wanting to strive for best practice, it would also in turn have a flow on effect for your staff as well, working within those organizations. Absolutely.

Kelly: 41:42

Because again, we have support with things like HR and OH& S and You know, as I said before, Catherine, I'm, I'm a field director, I'm not a business manager, I'm not a HR manager, I'm not an OHS manager. And how do you keep on top of all those updates and changes in regulations and requirements and, you know, all the things that you have to be aware of when you're managing one person, let alone a hundred people, and making sure they come to work every day in a safe and healthy environment. So those sorts of things are really important. And The AFTA helps us be aware of that. All those things that come through, we're, you know, provided that information. So I don't know how you keep up with all of those changes otherwise. So it's, it's really amazing that we've got that support to make sure that our staff come to the best place that we can offer them to work in this, you know, in this industry.

Catherine: 42:35

And you mentioned that, uh, there's some organizations that you know that would not be able to qualify for membership. So, there's obviously some sort of vetting process that you go through

Kelly: 42:46

when someone applies for membership? That's right. So, they have to complete a PAV inspection, Premises Vehicle Inspection, uh, Equipment Inspection. And, so, it's just Basic things, as I said, that we self regulate, but it's the way a mortuary is set up to make sure it can be completely washed down and infection control is, you know, at the highest level it possibly can be. Our vehicles are beautifully maintained and they're proper vehicles with proper safety barriers between, you know, the front and the back. They're not just an ordinary station wagon or four wheel drive that I've heard some people use, their own family vehicle for that sort of thing. And, you know, for professional businesses. That's not good enough. You know, we need to have those safety measures in place, again, not just to protect our staff, to protect the person that we're dealing with. We have to make sure that everything we have, the structures that we use are the very best that we can possibly provide and everything's beautifully clean and, and we're looking after infection control. All of those things are so imperative. So, you know, there's some people that just don't have those resources, they'll be able to meet those standards.

Catherine: 43:57

And something that you mentioned that really surprised me, actually shocked me when I found out that there's no regulation in the industry.

Kelly: 44:06

No, apart from things like, obviously we have to complete births, deaths and marriages registration to the, you know, requirements and, and those sorts of things, but there isn't as far as what does a funeral director have to have in their premises? There's nothing. There's no licensing or anything. Or, you know, requirements. So it's, it's impossible to, you know, see what all of these are offering or what they have, you know, and, and sometimes you're having refrigeration space isn't a mortuary, yet they'll call it a mortuary. You need a space to look after someone as beautifully and as carefully as possible in a secure, intimate environment that's very safe, that protects the privacy of the people in your care. So those sorts of things, I sound really bicey. But sometimes those people, some people don't have those resources. So it's, it's really sad. I'd love to see that regulation. Um, and that's something that as an association, you know, I'd love to look at that, that even if, if we helped to, you know, provide that, because all our members already have these. more than probably standards overseas with this license. Our standards are above and beyond that. So I'd love to see us all held to an account, or at least all funeral directors must be part of a professional association. So that means there's some level of checking. That there's a check of some course, even if it's by peers, I think that would be really important.

Catherine: 45:34

And at this stage, if people are wanting to find a funeral director in their local area, that is a member of your association, so they can, you know, feel more comfortable that there is some sort of, you know, best practice standard being upheld. That's available on your website,

Kelly: 45:51

isn't it? It is. You just go to the AFDA website and it's that it's a find a funeral director function. We put in the town or the postcode and it will give you, you know, options for however many kilometres. So, you know, you can still get that option to compare, to ring around, to make sure it's not just the person, it's not just about cost, it's also about feel. Is that the right person that's going to be looking after me and my family and this will be looking after our loved one. So it's really good to have those options. So it's a really good place to start. So, you know, but at the very least we have to have maintained these. Standards to be a member.

Catherine: 46:28

And I know that it's very comprehensive, the process that you, you have outlined on your website. I know when I was writing my guide, you know, you know, my loved one has died. What do I do now? I didn't even bother going in to detail about funerals because it's very comprehensively covered on your website. So I know that that's a great resource and we'll, we'll put a link to that, uh, in the, the show notes as well. Um,

Kelly: 46:54

Oh, fantastic. Look, I think, if nothing else, just like what you're doing, Catherine, information is powerful and it's so important at a time like this. And if we can look for that information before that time comes. even better because you're thinking a little bit more clearly. You've probably got more time to make those decisions. Just even looking at all the options, you know, we always say when people ring up, just, Oh, can we have a funeral here? There's no obligation. I'd love to send this information out to you. Even if you don't do anything else, you will have more information than you do now. And So when that time comes, you'll at least have a starting point. And I think that's absolutely key because it makes, it helps families feel empowered and in control at a time that you don't feel in control. Someone you love has died, you feel completely out of control. You can't control that situation. But we need to be able to have You know, all the options in front of you without it being overwhelming. And that's the fine point is if I gave you all the options available, when someone's passed away, the arrangement would take a week. So it's trying to ascertain how much information do we offer so we don't overwhelm a family. in grief. So if you can look at that information before a person passes, even if it's just for yourself, even if you, all you do is think, right, if I don't, what would I do for my funeral? And start looking at and having those conversations with families. The more those conversations are just easy conversations, the better it is, you know, when the time comes, because then families are saying, Oh, daddy's talking about that all the time. You know, we know exactly what he wants. The difference. That Max is palpable.

Catherine: 48:34

It really is. You know, I, I liken it to when you have to have the, the sex conversation with children, you know, how they always say to you that, you know, you should always have these conversations when you're in the car driving somewhere. So you've got them in a contained environment. You can have the hard conversation and they can't get out of the car. Yes, exactly. for having me. I think we should be doing the same thing in relation to having conversations about death, because I think that of recent incidents that we saw in Sydney over the weekend, things aren't always where we, we, we expect them to be when someone dies. Unfortunately, it can happen at any time. I had a car accident five years ago on my way to work and it changed my life completely. So you never know when that one incident's going to happen, that you need to act in one way or another. Uh, and I think that as you said, you know, the, the majority of people only sort of seem to make those decisions or have those conversations when they're feeling very vulnerable and they're in a very, uh, tight situation, perhaps timeline wise, uh, and it would be great if we could just see people have those conversations in the car on the way to school or, you know, doing the grocery

Kelly: 50:01

shopping or having dinner. Absolutely. I mean, it is an old age, but It's true. Death is a part of life and we, we, we are surrounded by it and, and we all experience it, you know, and that's the thing. And I think, you know, often when people come to us and say, Oh, you know, dad didn't want a funeral and you sort of tease a bit of information out about that. And often what that means is, they didn't have a great experience at a funeral, maybe years ago, and they're trying to protect their family from that. So they go, Oh, you don't have to do that, I'll protect you. So I'm going to just give you permission not to have anything. But then of course the family feel obliged to do exactly what dad wanted, but it's not necessarily the right thing for either. Because sometimes it's that protectiveness, I see it in parents all the time, that wanting to protect their children. The children who might be 60 or 70 themselves, but still want to protect them from the reality of death. And of course we can't, you know, it's, it stays there and unfortunately, you know, like anything, you can't, you can't bury it. It is, it'll come up and having those conversations around, well, you know, if your mum or dad says, Oh, I don't want anything. Well, can you tell me why that is? Because, you know, I can see the value in being us all together as a family, so I just want to understand your reason why, and would you, would you be upset if we did want to do something, even if it's something really simple? And there's still a lot of people around that still think you have to have. A big advertised funeral, still in a church. People go, oh, do I have to have it in a church? Do you have to advertise it in the newspaper? No, you don't. A funeral, you can call it a gathering, if you like, just to get away from that, the, the older terminology. We often say, we're having a gathering of family and friends on this day, and we're going to share some beautiful stories. And it's very different to having a wake. You know, people go, oh, we'll just have a wake afterwards. It's very different. Often, what's missed is, number one, your presence with the deceased for the last time. And I think the stories and the sharing of things doesn't come out as easily if it doesn't start with something first. Someone's got to start that process. You know, when that's not being done well at the service or the gathering, when they go back to the wake afterwards. Oh, that's stimulated a whole lot of conversations. Like you can see it and we often go to them, of course, because we know so many people and think, oh, it's just chat, chat, chat. And I love that. I think that's the most amazing part about bringing people together for a funeral is having that camaraderie. You're all sharing something really special on that day, as hard as it It is actually a very special day. So having those conversations around why, why you want certain things, why you don't want certain things is just as important as I don't want a service or I do want a service. Why is that? And let's work around that to make sure we've got something because there'll be one member of your family, if you've got three kids, they'll all want something different. If you've got six kids, I'll all want something different, guaranteed.

Catherine: 53:07

And, and that's, that's very true. And so, you know, that, is that one of the biggest challenges that you've seen as a funeral director over the years when families are, you know, dealing with the loss of a loved one and they're having to plan a funeral is not knowing or?

Kelly: 53:27

I would say the hardest thing or the biggest challenge In working funerals is family dynamics, and it's interesting because I usually preface when I'm talking to a family to say, like, we're in a safe place. Every family has their stuff, including our own. So what we need to do to work out what we're going to do for your mum or your dad is work out what everyone needs, because you'll all have a different life. idea, and it's really important we listen to each other. So, you know, making sure that we try and involve everyone that needs to be involved, obviously, it's not on for everyone, but those key people. But family dynamics, I think, can be the trickiest thing. It can really One death can bring up grief about a whole lot of other things, about the relationship itself, about a lack of fear of a relationship. It's, it's fraught with lots of issues, and they can come to a head because grief, when it's there, gives you an excuse for being quite emotional. So it sort of lets the floodgates open a lot of the time, so to speak. And sometimes I think the hardest part of what we do is making sure that we're listening, listening. And we're capturing, trying to capture what everyone needs. Even when you usually have to listen to the executor, that's who we have to listen to. They ultimately make the right decision. So with your work, Catherine, in preparing, I, my one piece of advice before you even get to the funeral is choose the right executors. Don't choose them just because it's the eldest, son or this person, you need to choose the person who you know will do what you want. And I think that's the most important thing because that's fraught with, fraught with a lot of angst and danger, I think, at a time of loss. And I think that's another impetus to people saying we don't want a funeral because they don't want to have to deal with that stuff. And that's a real loss. Yeah, for everyone involved.

Catherine: 55:30

And as an industry association, you mentioned that you're, you have the ability to meet with the coroner's court when you're at a state level and other bodies, but how do you measure trends within the funeral industry? We've touched on it a little bit and, and how do you go through advocating for change within the industry?

Kelly: 55:53

We commissioned our own research starting in 2021 through McRindle Research and we had members contribute to that research over a period of 15 months, which was a huge commitment, but it meant that members from all over Australia, metro, regional, rural, the most remote of our members contributed to that data because we wanted to have an understanding of, number one, what our members face, what are they dealing with, what are the most important things that are affecting their ability to do their work with families. So that's sort of, we need to understand those trends. We need to understand the challenges and the opportunities for families and sharing that information. So that information came out in three different reports. Uh, one was about even, The average cost of funerals, what people are choosing, where people have died, all those sorts of really important things. Because, you know, as I said, back when I started, most of our transfers, you know, into our care would have been from a family home. Whereas now our resources need to go, we might be going to Melbourne or Bendigo, you know, an hour away, two hours away, because they're in healthcare. So that impacts how we are able to engage with their families and time needed. So you have to know those trends to be able to resource your business properly so that you can help the families to the best of your ability. We also looked at, um, the work family, the funeral managers do with families after the funeral. So what sort of aftercare is involved? How do we contribute to our communities? Because Just like our family, we've been in cartons since the E. D. O. T. Uh, we've been here since 1938 in business. Most of us belong to small communities. And even those larger members in, in the metro areas, they have their suburbs that are their communities. So they know those staff there. When people say, oh, they're a big member, I say, the people that I speak to are those large companies. It's just like me and you. They care just as much, they love their job just as much, and they get as much out of it. So, you know, those mini communities within suburbs are also very present. So it's important that, you know, we're also part of the community. And those trends, it was really important to see those trends, the importance of doing that, and to see the feedback you get from families when they see you working in a community. Above and beyond the funeral care that you provide.

Catherine: 58:17

And tell me about the advocation side of things.

Kelly: 58:22

So we do a lot of advocating, again, not just brand members. For example, during COVID 19, you know, and we had all those frontline workers, which did, I still can't even imagine the things they were faced with. Unfortunately, we weren't considered, uh, as essential service workers, and yet, We couldn't leave deceased people in nursing homes, could we? Yet, we had to provide full P P E V, like you saw, nurses in wear, but at our own expense, which, I think that people are still recovering financially from, from those costs. We didn't get any help from the government, and we didn't certainly get any help with making that, the transportation easy, because we're going all over the place. We're going interstate, moving across borders, going from, you know, what the Ring of Steel was like in Melbourne. So coming from regional, we had to have papers written out every time and stop near Sunbury to get into Melbourne. And then on the way out again, you know, all those things we just, so we're advocated for what we were doing, which was absolutely essential that we looked after people as, as quickly. And, and with that dedication that, Not waiting for days because we didn't have PPE. So we're swapping around among members. Whoever had some would send it and you'd be helping each other. So you could continue to support the family. So we needed to advocate to government to say, we are also essential workers. Yes, we're private businesses, but so are the healthcare providers in lots of ways. And we need some support because without us, We couldn't keep deceased people in nursing homes. We needed to bring them into our care so that families could start the funeral process. So, having those sorts of conversations are really, really important. Just about, with BDM, providing death certificates to families, we have a great relationship with BDM in Victoria and they're really open, so we meet with them regularly. We talk about all That's births, deaths, and marriages. Sorry, births, deaths, and marriages. Yeah. So we talk about all those pain points, you know, where we're registering a death or delays in death certificates. So now we've got great people at BDM, which is, you know, a big group of people where can anyone say, look, can you just follow up? This poor lady really needs this death certificate because she can't do this. And, and they are wonderful. So having that advocacy, having those relationships. are really important. So it's not just about making complaints or saying you're not doing this, it's about building a relationship to say we're on the same team, we're on the same side, we actually both want this result for this family, but it's easier for us to ring them than a grieving family to ring them to complain about where that density is. So, having that as being, you know, a conduit to that, those conversations is really, really important. So, cemeteries and crematoria, another one. You know, we're in Victoria in WA, all of our cemeteries and crematoria are government controlled, run by boards of management. We have no control over their fees, so when people say, oh, the cost of funerals, you know, a lot of that is, especially in metropolitan Melbourne, they're, they're, they're, they're Burial costs are increasing because of the lack of land. We have no control over those. So just appealing to that, to say to some families, burial isn't a choice. It's what they have to do because it's a religious or a cultural requirement. So they don't get a choice over spending 12, 000 on a grave. They have to do that. It's imperative to them. Their family are all there. So it's not a choice, it's, oh, that's what you could afford to choose. For some, they will crowdfund to make sure that that one very important piece of that farewell can be delivered. taken, you know, and can be done. So, you know, those sorts of things we need to advocate to on behalf of families to say, how can we make that more realistic? Because, you know, when we talk about the cost of funerals, I think it's a really important conversation for people's, people to have, and don't be shy about having a conversation. Just like all information around funerals and what you can do, it's really important to understand what your options are, what your choices are. And what they cost. And when you talk about the increasing cost of funerals as a funeral industry, that's right across the board at the moment. In every industry, you know, costs are rising. It is the cost of living crisis. And because funerals tap into so many different industries, you know, it's hospitality, it's manufacturing, it's florists, it's musicians, it's audio visual specialists. It's, we can tap into sometimes 12 or 10 or 12 different supplies for one funeral. So all of their costs have increased. And, you know, when you look at a whole of the funeral, that can sometimes incorporate 10 or, 10 or 12 different supplies on top of what we do, you know, as part of our care for a deceased person and their family. So, it's really important that families understand that. What costs are? Having those discussions around what do you need us to do? We can do as much or as little as you need us to do. So some families, as we talked about before, with the care of a loved one, some people are very hands on, love to come in, even if it's just doing mum's makeup, you know, they want to be part of it. For some people that might be, they put together their own orders of service. They put together their own PowerPoint slideshow. They live stream themselves, you know. If they can't do it, we can help them. We can get a service provider to do that. But that's, there's lots of ways to reduce costs. If families, you know, are more hands on, they can lead their own service as a celebrant if they want to. You know, I wouldn't recommend that. You know, I think sometimes it's really good to be on the day, just focusing on your loved one, not focusing on the logistics of how everything's going to come together. I think there'll always be a need. For some professional help, guidance and support on that day to give people that out, you know, and take that pressure off them. It's hard enough getting up to do a eulogy, let alone running a service and being, you know, making sure everyone's turned up, number one, when we get in there an hour and a half before the service, you know, has the priest arrived, you know, are the musicians there, are they set up, does the TV work, all those sorts of things that we do, you know, well ahead of time and the day is running up to it. So, you know, but. If people know what their choices are and what's involved, they can make really informed decisions. And to me, that is absolutely key.

Catherine: 1:04:42

And having, uh, run events for 13 years, like, I totally agree with you that people underestimate the logistics and what happens behind the scenes, uh, to make it. All flow very smoothly on the day and you add emotions to that. That can be quite, quite troublesome. But something that you were talking about, you know, with the budgeting, is it something that they should also, if they have a limited budget, they should, they should let the funeral director know.

Kelly: 1:05:12

Absolutely. And I think that's a really important conversation because there's so, so many things we can suggest to go, well, how about doing this or what about doing that, you know, that can minimize those costs. Because as I said, some people think you have to have this professionally done or this professionally printed or, and I'll say, if you've got a teen in your family, guess what? They can put together a PowerPoint presentation. Now it mightn't be to the, you know, editing genius of a professional company. But, where's your priority, you know, it might be, and the other day I did this for a family, they, I said, they were on a property, and I said, didn't you know your loved one like flower? Oh, I wasn't really, I said, I'm sure you've got some beautiful gum leaves and some flowering gums and everything, why don't we bring those, oh, people love that, so, you know, it's just teasing out that bit of information so they don't feel like, and again this comes back to what people think they should do, say, or spend. Oh, we should spend, because this shows how much we love them if we buy a thousand dollars worth of flowers. No, it does not. But for some people that's very appropriate. For some people who always bought flowers, had flowers in their home, loved flowers. A beautiful arrangement of flowers in the coffin is absolutely perfect. For other people, that is not what that curse is all about. It would be sprigs from their garden, you know, we've had pine cones on a coffin with some wool fleece from their, from their sheep at home. You know, it can be anything. Yeah. So it's I love that. Letting people know everything's okay. Don't think it's cutting corners. It's actually personalizing. It's bringing in touches of home. And, you know, even having those beautiful image wrapped personalized coffins now. Oh my goodness. People absolutely love those because it can be anything you want. It can be jelly beans. It can be pictures of their dogs. You know, it can be, um, You know, and I think just having that to go and even giving a lightness to a service where people come and go, Oh, look at that. I remember we had a funeral for a lady who lived on a farm. She was an older lady and, you know, you'd think more, probably more would choose something more traditional. And we had an image wrapped coffin with a tractor on it because she loved driving a tractor. And whenever it came in, it was the talking point of the day. And I thought, that alone, you know, don't spend it on the flowers. That was much more fitting for her, you know, so, yeah.

Catherine: 1:07:36

And it's interesting because it kind of reminds me about, you know, when my sister perhaps got married in the 80s, and it was still very much white wedding, still to be expected. Even though she had the. the ceremony at home and, but, you know, nowadays anything goes when it comes to a wedding and no one blinks an eyelid. So it's like we need to, you know, have the same mindset when we think of funerals that really whatever celebrates that person who we're honoring goes

Kelly: 1:08:11

really. Oh, absolutely. I mean, think about, you know, we've had them in shoeing sheds and the coffins been on bales of, you know, hay and, you know, in fantastic yacht clubs and art galleries. We've had it in a restaurant, you know, it's where we can get permission, you know, you can have a gathering. And I think one of the other things I've noticed about, you know, post COVID, there was quite a few families who quite loved that when it was down to 10 or 20, quite that intimate feel. And what I'm finding now, people are sort of having Something they might be into, maybe it's the committal, maybe it's the, the little service at the crematorium or the gravesite and it's just families, they've got a little something just for them, where they can let go a little bit if they need to, and then they share that larger gathering with everyone else, but still have maybe a private committal. So they're doing that, the best of both, because you're having that bigger group, all that beautiful support, all the sharing of memories. Stories and, you know, just the physical support, the hugging, you know, the people saying, I've got you, you know, I'm here for you. You can't replace that. So having that is really important. I think it's more important than ever as people feel more disconnected, but then also having something just for you and your family. It might be the vigil the night before. As I said, when we encourage that come in the night before when it's nice and quiet, it's just you guys sit and play some favorite music. Just have a little something for yourself before that big day tomorrow that you share with everyone else. Because sometimes those closest don't get their moments because it's so big. So if you get something for yourself, the thought of having something a bit bigger isn't so daunting.

Catherine: 1:09:49

Yes, I totally agree with that because it can be very overwhelming those large occasions. Yes. For me personally, you know, in the last 12 months. We know, um, of four families who have had to crowdfund some aspect of the funeral for their loved one. Is that something that you've seen as an industry association and, and is it something that you're looking at to address in some way? I think

Kelly: 1:10:18

we put it this way, we absolutely have seen it and I think people crowdfund for lots of different reasons. There is a need for it. You know, some people, as you said, life can change in the blink of an eye. You're not prepared. It's not something you spend years going, I'll put a little bit of money aside for that. It can be at the most inopportune moment financially for your family that that comes along. And that's why I think, again, having those conversations, because in those situations, you don't have time to prepare. You haven't done the homework. You don't have time. You feel like you've got to make decisions really quickly. And I would still say, even then, even when it's very sudden, just stop. And even if it's you not doing that, getting that information, get someone close to you, not someone too close, but they can perhaps get that information for you so you've got the costs and the facts and the choices in front of you, before you. You're locked into something that you think, Oh, actually, that's beyond me. It's really important to have those conversations as a family first, before you even meet with a funeral director, to say, let's be realistic and, you know, what would our sister want? What would our brother want? You know, this is the funds that we've got available. Let's look around and see what we can do for that and be really realistic. And funeral directors will absolutely understand. In fact, that's much easier. Having that information up front to then go, Oh, great. Okay. This is what we can do. And we can look at it this way and that way. So I think it's really good to have those conversations and transparency around costs is absolutely key. I mean, we welcomed the, you know, the IPART ACCC investigation to the funeral industry, because you know, we want people to be more open. We want people to be able to know exactly what they're Going to get with, for those, for those choices. So it's really important that people aren't put under undue financial strain on top of everything else that comes with grief and loss. So having those conversations is really important. So we're trying to be, do lots of media and advocacy around transparency, making sure costs are very easily. So in Victoria, we have legislation around having costs readily available. If someone comes into your business, there should be a cost sheet that you can come and say, I want your cost sheet. I mean, ours is on our website. We're very open, you know, about what our costs are. And you'll find a lot of funeral directors now do have their costs on their website. So people can access that at any time in the privacy of their own home. I think some families do stress when they come together. Sometimes they come in together for the first time at the funeral director's home, and they've had a chance to discuss how much money did mum actually have in her account? You know, and that, those sort of issues can be fraught with danger as well. So having those conversations before you make any decisions. That's what I'd encourage people to do because yes, there are things like crowdfunding and things like that available, which, you know, a lot of people utilize. And again, it's used for lots of different life events that we're just not ready for.

Catherine: 1:13:19

That's really good advice about having those conversations. Before you actually go and see the funeral director, because as you said, it may be the first time they've seen each other in a long time and that could be really awkward. So, yep, taking that time out and maybe having a coffee or lunch beforehand and having a chat. about those practicalities is really good advice. So thanks for that, Kelly. Now, coming back to, you know, TJ Scott and son funeral directors, is there another generation that with you and Daniel that might, you know, join the, the family business?

Kelly: 1:13:59

Oh, there's a few kids between us, but I think we're going to take dad's. Attitude and not even mention it and just see where that, that may lie, um, but certainly no pressure, you know, hopefully Dan and I don't, I'd love to still be working. My dad isn't 75. I mean, my grandparents were still answering the phone in their eighties. It's just one of those things to me. It is a vocation. I can't help it. I can't imagine not working. So it's hopefully got a few years left in me. And I'd love to see, you know, it'd be great to see one of the kids, even one of them to go show an interest, but just to be understanding of what they do, what we do and what's involved. But I certainly wouldn't be saying, Oh, who's coming in? When are you coming in? I would certainly say, have your own life experience. First, I mean, my son's doing chiropractic, so there's absolutely no chance there. He's, uh, very happy to be in health care. My daughter's studying psychology, so you never know, but we'll wait and see, but yeah, I mean, it'd be lovely. A lot of people ask us because they like to know that that guarantee is there that we'll continue on, but yeah, who knows what's ahead and we certainly, I certainly wouldn't want any of them to feel like they were pressured to because we certainly weren't and I feel like that's really important because it's got to be a choice. You know, not something that's just handed on, just there it is. I think you've really got to want it and be in it for the right reasons.

Catherine: 1:15:22

And tell me, have you done anything to prepare for your own death, Kelly?

Kelly: 1:15:26

Oh, of course. Funeral directors, of course, they do. I have. I always make notes and I change it periodically. You know, I'll go to a new venue and go, Oh, that's a lovely venue. I mean, you know, it's, it's funny. And I come from a Catholic background. And so. Probably, you know, years ago, it definitely would have been something quite different. And, you know, as, as time goes on, uh, it would have to involve. Food and wine and definitely me being there. I wouldn't want to miss out. So, so my family knows I will be there for the last time. But yeah, I love the idea of having, you know, something, you know, even if it was tomorrow, you know, a very pragmatic event that we have those conversations with our kids. And there's certain things I've said, this is what I'd like. And there's something that I don't care, you decide, because I want them to be a part of that too. I don't want to write, this is exactly how it's going to be, because I understand there'll be things that they all need. And I'm very happy for them to make those decisions. So, as for the plays, as long as I know there's good food and good wine, and there's good music, and there's a little mixture of everything, I'll be quite happy.

Catherine: 1:16:31

Oh, that sounds fantastic. And is there anything else that you'd like to share, or any other advice or encouragement you'd like to share? Look,

Kelly: 1:16:41

I always say, as I said, I've been doing this 34 years now, coming up in May, and I think the only thing, I would never say to anyone what to do or what not to do, my only suggestion or advice is Take your time. Do not feel rushed. There's absolutely no need to feel rushed, whether it's before or at the time. You know, sometimes the first question is, ring your funeral director. When's the funeral director coming? And usually we, we can get on the phone to the family and say, are you actually ready for us? Would you like to wait until some family members arrive at the nursing home or home? Just because it's happened doesn't mean we have to come straight away. And it's like, you'd almost hear that sigh of relief. Um, you But someone else has been, you know, let's go, you know, you've got to make all those decisions because that's what they think should be done. So I would always just err on the side of take your time, then take your time to have the service. It's nothing now to waste. A week or two weeks for families to gather from far and wide, even with the, you know, we have live streaming on so many funerals now, but for those key people that have to be there, allow time for them to get there. You don't want them to arrive on the morning of the funeral and be exhausted. It's really important that they're present emotionally as well as physically. And I think just taking your time because, you know, when I see families go, Oh, we need to have it by the stage. You can see the pressure that's on them to, because they want all the photos put together and they want neulogies to be done and, you know, I would err on the side of just giving yourself lots of time, lots of space to make those decisions. You know, talk to your funeral director about the options first. You know, when we're meeting with the family, say, let's meet tomorrow, not today. It's just happened. You know, whereas years ago, you'd have people coming straight from the nursing home to your door ready to arrange the funeral. And again, just as we said, they haven't had a chance to talk about what they all need from this experience. So, take your time. That's probably, I think, the most important thing. And ask for ideas. Be honest about your situation. You might say, actually, we've got a brother we're estranged from or an aunt that's gonna cause trouble. Okay, what does that mean? How can we support that? Because we don't want you to stop doing what you need to do because of these There's challenges because they're in every single family. I have not met one. that hasn't had something going on underneath the surface, you know, even if they hide it really well. But I think, be honest, and your funerary is there to support you as much as anything, to help you get there. So, you know, you could come and say, Oh, we want the funeral here. You might say, Oh, have you thought of any other options? You know, think about that. Don't think, Oh, we have to do exactly the same as was done for our grandparents or Generations before. How can we make it really unique for them? And it's sometimes it's those really intangible, small little things. Bits and pieces that make it absolutely beautiful that people come away uplifted from a funeral, even in the most tragic circumstances. It can be uplifting. It can re, you know, reinforce how important relationships are. And I think when you see people come away from a funeral like that, you think, Oh, I've done something good today. You know, I've helped. Put that together. So people have come away from there going, I knew a little bit about Bill when I did before I came in. And I love that.

Catherine: 1:20:03

It is good. I like, we actually went to a memorial on, on the weekend and, and I always find that I come away with finding a richer story from someone about the person that has passed. So yeah, it is really lovely.

Kelly: 1:20:20

Yeah, it's, it's about making it special. And yeah, they might look, look the same a little bit, but really, as I said, every family teaches us something new and. You know, from that, you can create something really beautiful and it is in all those little touch points, I think, and making sure everyone, those key people around, the person that's died, those key people, all contribute in some way. And sometimes, you know, the art of what we do is a lot of mediation and, and teasing out of information. When you've got a big group of, you know, family coming to arrange a funeral, try to engage that quiet one over there in the corner and say, What do you think? Have you thought of any, what about music for you? Have you thought of any songs trying to, you know, bring them into the conversation? Because there's always the loudest voice. There's always someone that's the dominant one, and often they Yeah, sure. You see that. Yeah. And sometimes they have to be, you know, because they're, they're the family organizer and the family wouldn't be the same without those people. But, you know, sometimes those quiet voices also need to be heard to make sure that everyone. Plays a part in it because I think that's really really important.

Catherine: 1:21:25

Well, look, I think that that's a wonderful note to to leave on Kelly I can't thank you enough for Being our guest today and thank you so much for speaking with us.

Kelly: 1:21:35

Oh, thanks Catherine. Thanks for what you're doing I think these conversations are amazing. And I think what you do is critical info is just incredible. So well done.

Catherine: 1:21:44

Thank you

Kelly: 1:21:44

so

Catherine: 1:21:45

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