Don't Be Caught Dead
Welcome to Don’t Be Caught Dead - a podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I’m your host, Catherine Ashton - Founder of Critical Info - and I’m helping to bring your stories of death back to life.
Because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared.
Don't Be Caught Dead
ENCORE: Reclaiming death back into our own hands and hearts with Deathwalker Zenith Virago
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In this episode, I speak with a pioneer in the death care industry, Zenith Virago. Zenith is the founder and executive officer of the Natural Death Care Centre Charity Australia. She is a death walker, a celebrant, and an educator.
Zenith has been empowering people to have healthier, healing bereavement with few or no regrets for over 30 years. Our conversation was enlightening and funny, ranging from the significance of graveyards in England, ceremonies for the LGBTQ community, how to support children through grief.
And we even managed to talk about vaginas!
I'm sure you'll enjoy hearing from Zenith as much as I did.
In this episode, we cover:
- Zenith's journey into becoming a 'Death Walker'
- The importance of community in death care
- The enlightening experience of founding the Natural Death Care Center charity
- The impact of generosity in the world of death care
- Zenith's exploration of death care in the UK
- The role of ceremony in complex death situations
Stay tuned for this enlightening episode and remember, let's break the taboo around talking about death.
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Contact Zenith:
Zenith Virago, Deathwalker Training
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Contact Catherine
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Music composer: Ania Reynolds - https://www.aniareynolds.com/
I was so incredibly impressed by his generosity and his kindness, because it's very unusual for a funeral director to tell you how to do it themselves. And because I never got to thank him, because when I went back to say thank you, the funeral directors had disappeared. But I am bound by his example to me of generosity. So if someone asks me if something, if I can possibly give it, I will, because you never know what that piece of information is going to seed. Because everything that has come in the last 30 years was made easier because of his generosity by sharing that information with me so freely that day.
Catherine:Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead. A podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Katherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life. Because while you may not be ready to die, At least you can be prepared. Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations and recognises their connection to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their Elders, past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. In this episode, I speak with a pioneer in the death care industry, Zenith Farago. Zenith is the founder and executive officer of the Natural Death Care Centre Charity Australia. She is a death walker, a celebrant and an educator. Zenith has been empowering people to have healthier, healing bereavement with few or no regrets for over 30 years. Our conversation was enlightening and funny, ranging from the significance of graveyards in England, ceremonies for the LGBTQ community, how to support children through grief, and we even managed to talk about vaginas. I'm sure you'll enjoy hearing from Zenith as much as I did. Thank you for joining us today. You're welcome. Thank you. Now Zenith, you describe yourself as a death walker. What is a death walker?
Zenith:For me, I'm walking towards my own death the best and courageously as I can, and so when I'm working with people, I'm accompanying them in their death journey, or their bereavement journey, if they're the people that are going to live on. And so, I, when I first started my work, the word doula was a word, but it wasn't in common usage. And then through the years, people said to me, Oh, you're like a death doula. But someone told me a long time ago that the word doula meant female slave. And so I have never used that word to describe myself. I just say that I work with people who are dying and their families and friends. And then about 15 years ago, I thought, Oh, I really need to put a name to it because I'm saying this long sentence every time. And so I took the word Death Walker because we're all walking towards our own deaths. We're all. walking each other home in the words of Ram Dass. And so that made it a much more real term for me. And so I've used that to describe myself because it's much more than what people call doula work. So it's about the legal aspects, the practical aspects, the ceremony about body care after someone dies, and just really, being across it all and then accompanying people in the part that they need to be accompanied in.
Catherine:Thank you for that explanation. You've been reclaiming death care for over 30 years now and you're considered a pioneer in the industry. You have a background in legal and welfare. How did you get started? Was there a particular incident that was the catalyst, or?
Zenith:Well, I think, you know, our whole lives take us on a journey, and sometimes when you look back at that, you can think, oh, that was really Rate that I did that then, and it can be something very small from a long time ago, or it can be something big. And a friend of mine died when I was 14. Suddenly he, uh, fell on something at school. He was taken to hospital. The hospital didn't do their job properly and were neglectful, and he died overnight. And in that moment, I learned that death doesn't only come to the old, it comes to the young, and it can come unexpectedly, and it can come through a range of different ways, even when you think someone's in hospital care, and they're okay. And for the next couple of years, I just really worked with that on the inside, I thought. What's the use in planning? I could be dead by the weekend. And so really, I've lived my whole life as if I could die tomorrow. And that's been very helpful for me, about seizing the moment, about saying yes to things, about being unafraid, about being courageous, about being kind, about being helpful. And then when I was Uh, in my twenties, in the eighties, uh, HIV came along to the queer community, which is what I'm part of. And so I watched lots of really beautiful young men contract HIV, some of whom died. uh, quickly, some of whom who cured themselves because they did not want to live what they thought would be a death sentence and they would die dribbling in the hospital. And also many of those men survived and that, you know, they were lucky enough to live long enough for a great, uh, medication to come into play. But again, it, and I remember one of those in particular saying to me, You know, HIV has been a great gift to me because it's taught me about the depth of life and something more important than partying and Everything else that went with that. And I remember sitting with him and I found that shocking, but of course now as years have gone by I understand it. So they were the two sort of pivotal things for me. And then I was just busy living my life. Uh, I worked in law, so I had a great understanding of, uh, paperwork and legality and process and that most people in jobs of authority are just people doing their job. job. They're playing a role. And then a dear friend of mine died one early one morning. She had an aneurysm in the garden and was taken to hospital, but was clearly dead in the garden. And I went with her husband to visit her body and he was going to identify her because she'd been taken off by ambulance. And while I was doing that, With him in the morgue, I had this extraordinary experience of feeling her energy, her life force, leave her body, and I turned to, there were four other people in the room to say, can you see this? And they were all busy crying or looking away, and I just, Thought, wow, this is obviously a phenomenon. I don't want to miss it. I was a Buddhist at that stage I've been exploring some Buddhist teachings and Anyway, when we walked out of the morgue, I said to her husband, you know, we can do this ourselves We don't need to give her to a stranger. We could look after it It, I'm sure I can work that out. And he said, Oh, that would be great. Great. Because we were sort of hippies living on the North coast. They were very spiritual couple, had two teenage daughters. And on my way home from Lismore to Byron, where I lived, I saw a funeral directors in Bangalore that I'd never seen before. And I went in and said to the guy, my best friend just died. Can you explain to me what to do? Incredibly, he said yes. He showed me how to fill in the forms. He offered to come and help, not to interfere. And from there, we did it all ourselves. He was always there at every stage, but we never needed him. And I was so incredibly impressed by his generosity and his kindness to us, because it's very unusual for a funeral director to Tell you how to do it themselves. And so I've always, because I never got to thank him because when I went back to say thank you, the funeral directors had disappeared. Uh, but I'm bound by his example to me of generosity. So just like you, if someone asks me if something, if I can possibly give it, I will. Because you never know what that piece of information is going to seed. because everything that has come in the last 30 years was made easier because of his generosity by sharing that information with me so freely that day.
Catherine:Oh, wow. That's really amazing. And tell me what are the changes that you've noticed within the industry over those, those 30 years?
Zenith:Well, it's been, it's been a great It's been a great thing to witness. So in our area in particular, so 30 years ago, before the internet, and I managed to track down someone in England, a guy called Nicholas Aubrey, who had started the Natural Death Center in London. And I phoned him up one day. We had a big chat. I said to him, look, I want to start something like that in Australia. Can I just use that name? I don't want to reinvent the wheel. And it's a such a perfect, simple name. And he said, absolutely. So he was also incredibly generous.
Catherine:And
Zenith:how did you hunt him down? I don't know. I can't remember. It's so long ago, but I just one phone call with him, uh, late at night. And, and then he died shortly after that. He was killed in a car accident and I didn't create that organization at that time. I just potted along for a while and then because there was a decision that I had to make whether to make it a business or a not for profit and it became very clear to, a lot of people wanted me to create a business because they, they knew that I worked hard and that I needed to be remunerated for that work. But it wasn't my, I'm, I'm a community person at heart. And so I got very clear that it needed to be a not for profit, which it has been, and now it's a charity. And he, I've since met his wife. I visit her if I'm in England. And also that organization is still going. And. So the fact for me that there were other people like me all around the world, but I couldn't find them, but I knew they had to be there, and most of them were old hippies or old feminists, home birthers, uh, people who had reclaimed birth and so wanted now to reclaim death, who were dissatisfied with that profit driven system run by men in black suits. And. Because in lots of places, it's very easy to take, to reclaim it back into your own hands because the funeral industry is a relatively new development. So for most of our existence as human beings, families, tribes, communities, cultures looked after their own dead and dying. And then they cared for the body and then they took it to a place of burial or cremation or whatever disposal methods they had. And then they honored that person and they wept and cried and laughed and lived on together. But the funeral industry is relatively new, like, let's say, three, four hundred years old, mostly run by men because we're living in a patriarchal society where women weren't allowed to do a lot of things. And so, consequently, that industry was very narrow, You know, the patriarchy doesn't like women feeling their emotions. It doesn't like people crying all over the place and being emotive. So it made it very tight, very quick to deal with. So that, and also before refrigeration, people had to be in the ground or disposed of in some way as quickly as possible. And then embalming. which was an ancient practice, came back into play. And during the American Civil War, because bodies had to be shipped north or south, because of the fighting for truth and justice, and to stop enslavement of people. And so that process continued on, and people could see it as a lucrative industry, because we are all going to die. And So reclaiming that back into our own hands has been very satisfying because what it does is very clearly, the more you participate, the more you're involved, the more decisions you, the more informed decisions you make, the more consideration you have about a situation, the better you feel at the end of it. So when you look back, you cannot change the circumstances of the death. But you can look back and say, wow, it was terrible when someone died, but we had a great funeral. We couldn't have done that any better. It was so beautiful to do this, to paint the coffin, to wash and dress them, to dress them in their own clothes, to fill that coffin with notes or flowers or things, uh, and then to carry them ourselves and then to push them in the cremator or to lower them into the grave. And then to throw that dirt on top of them and then to eat and drink together and to know that we couldn't have done that any better. Because that process really supports people in healing some of the pain and suffering around the death, especially if it's sudden or shocking, but it also makes them have a healthier bereavement because they are. Doing something with that energy, not just turning up three or four days later with a box where they don't even see that person. And especially for children to be involved. Where as the old practice was people didn't even let children attend a funeral. Which is Terrible. Terrible. Because children will deal with it as best they can, but otherwise it's missing. And a lot of people, my age or older, was in situations where one of their parents would die or their sibling, and people had a funeral, the kid didn't go, so they never really got what was happening. And sometimes they were never allowed to discuss that person again. And I cannot imagine how painful and confusing that would be as a child when someone that you love very much suddenly disappears and no one tells you the truth about that situation.
Catherine:Yes. And in such contrast to how we encourage parenting today to
Zenith:That's right. And death, death is a natural part of our life. You know, being killed is, isn't so natural, but it happens. But when a death is sudden and shocking, it's very important that the process after death is as natural as Owned and as participated in by family and friends, and when we say family, we mean blood family, we mean family by love, or by marriage, or by friendship, or by culture, so, you know, like, a chosen family is a very popular term, so that those people are absolutely involved as much as they want to be.
Catherine:Mm
Zenith:hmm.
Catherine:Now tell me about your role as founder and executive officer of the Natural Death Care Centre charity. You mentioned, obviously, it was inspired by the work that had been in the UK, but tell me about how, uh, it started here for you. What was the, the thing that made you, you start it that went, okay, yep, I'm definitely going to turn it into a business or charity, as you did. Uh, and And what was the process for that?
Zenith:I did, I did a sort of, I'm English born, but I've lived in Australia for 40 years since my 20s. And after I'd been dealing with death and doing lots of funerals, I went on a research trip to England, really to talk about natural burials, green burials, more organic burials. And I know that England is so quirky. That it had a sort of really in a more unbroken, uh, lineage, even though it had funeral directors, it just had this history of burying people on the farm. And even in a city, I went to visit my cousin and they had a grave in their back garden, which was quite a small back garden in a row of shops. So in a very urban environment. And I said, what's that? They said, Oh, it's a grave. And I was just like, only the English would allow that to happen, you know, to bury someone or build a housing estate around a grave. I don't know which way it was.
Catherine:I have to agree with that. We were there in October of last year and I had a look at two natural burial grounds, Dalton and also Ibworth. But for me, what surprised me the most is there's just church yards with graves everywhere you go, every little town. And it's just right next to where the 7 Eleven is or, you know, the main street. It's, it's really quite, it's shocking from a Australian perspective where, you know, we're very much planned out and work out where we're going to have our, our cemeteries and how far they're going to be out. And yeah, so it was really quite amazing. So I totally agree with you.
Zenith:Yeah. And also when I was a child, my, Grandparents, my father's parents, he was the chief gravedigger at Wandsworth Cemetery and they lived in a big stone house at the top of a hill. So when I used to go to visit them once a fortnight or something with my mother when I was little, we would have to walk through that graveyard to that house. And so, but it's a very common thing in England to take the kids to a graveyard because the cemeteries are so full of amazing history on a Sunday and just go walking through them and look at the graves. And it's not a morbid thing because there's lots of sculpture because, especially as a working class person, it's the nearest you're going to get to a sculpture garden because there's angels and there's carvings and liam's and you know that some of them are You have six, 700 years old, those graves. And so it's a history lesson. And, and to realize that, you know, lots of children died, lots of women died in childbirth and you know, it's part of learning about life and death. And so I already had all that going on, which is very different, I think, to Australian, uh, childhoods, because, but of course, if you go to Sydney, you've got those incredible cemeteries on the cliffs, overlooking the ocean in some of the best, beautiful spots in Sydney on that coastline. And so it's, you know, You know, that's a beautiful thing that they haven't been used for real estate. So I had all that going on and I've sort of forgotten what the question was. Oh, the death center. Yeah. So, uh, I went back to England to do a research thing and it just became very clear to me that the people I met who were involved in not for profit or trusts, they were very similar to me. We had a similar sort of way of being and a level of integrity, not to say that. Some of the people in green funeral parlors didn't have that, but there was just something for me that was so similar. And what was important for me was that when people came looking for something, because again, it was before the internet, I wanted to feel like we were. a lighthouse in a dark place where people could see that light and come towards it. And we would, I would refer them on to people because people were telling, contacted me and telling me who they were. So I was becoming like a hub for a network of people. And often I was just the conduit to get them to someone else. But what I wanted people to understand what the, the, In a incorporated association, there was an implicit integrity that you didn't have to worry whether like, like a funeral industry where people are going to rip you off, or they're going to try and sell you something. We had nothing to sell. We just wanted to be a networking organization. And we became that. And so. We, we, we have a committee and they guided me, uh, consulted with them and they made decisions. I didn't make any of those decisions, but we worked together and that was great to have a team who were advisory and in governance. And it just worked like that. And then at some stage we had a pro bono lawyer who did the work to make us into a charity. And also because we decided that the best thing for us was to do pre need education. Because the more it grew, the more people I was training, the more people were out there doing that work. And it was my dream that there will be someone in every community, whether that's geographic, sexual, cultural, uh, um, spiritual, religious, whatever. There will be someone within each community who could do that work for their people. And I've absolutely lived long enough to see that. And that's an incredibly deeply satisfying place to be where now no one hardly rings me to do the work itself because they have someone that they know who can do that work for them. And that is a really satisfying You know, as I say, it's deeply satisfying. And so the death center exists in order to educate and to network people together and to just be a contact point for people who are looking for something, but often they're not really looking for us, they're looking for something else, but we convey them to that other person in their state, for example.
Catherine:And there's a range of programs that you offer. Uh, through the center, isn't there?
Zenith:Yeah, so we offer a three day Death Walker training, which is basically everything you need to know about, uh, preparing for death, death and dying. It's very practical, it has legal aspects, has social aspects, has a bit of spirituality, but it's very, very, uh, deep. It talks about self care, if you're going to be doing that work, about a way of being in that work so that you don't merge with people's suffering, so you can love them in the suffering. And often what I'm saying is this is what 30 years on that cold face looks like when you've got great self care, where you are not taking on their suffering, but you are loving them in their suffering, and appreciating that people who are Distressed, uh, are functioning human beings and it's fantastic that they can feel those emotions. They can feel that pain and suffering when their person dies because it means they're not numb, they're not paralyzed, they're not traumatized, they may be traumatized but they're being able to move that trauma through that experience rather than just be paralyzed. Oh, you can't even see that because it's on radio, but completely numb and completely unresponsive and shocked. It was a very good numb face, I have to say. So, you know, so that, that's. We teach that three day workshop. I used to teach a two day ceremony master class, which is about creating ceremony for complex death, but there is the components of creating a great ceremony. The structure and content of that are in that Death Walker training. But I've also, during COVID, I put it all online, because we didn't know what was going to happen with the world. And I thought that at least then people who are still needing that information can do that. So there's a Death Walker training and the Ceremony Masterclass is on that platform. Online. And there's also a consultation and ceremony class. So ideally you would do the three, Deathwalker, Ceremony and Consultation, and then the Masterclass. But you can do, if you don't want to be a celebrant, you wouldn't worry about those, except for they're very informative.
Catherine:Thank you for explaining that. Now, you mentioned ceremony and ritual there. With being a member of the LGBTQ community and the fact that you've married over 2, 500 couples, and I'm assuming countless funerals as well, what have you noticed the difference between the role that ceremony and ritual play, uh, at the end of life for someone who is part of the, the queer community? Is there a difference?
Zenith:Uh, It depends on that person. I mean, each person is unique regardless of their sexuality. But how you die is basically dependent on how you've lived. And for many gay, queer, lesbian people, they have lived a functional, full rich life with a partner and lots of friends, and they haven't been intimidated by the fact that other people find their sexuality an issue. It may not be an issue for them. So I feel that the phrase coming out has, is really past its use by date, because no one asks straight people when they're 16 or 17, so are you gay? Are you heterosexual? You know, they don't have to declare their sexuality because they're in a heteronormative society. So, a lot of people have lived very, like me for example, very rich, full lives, and it's, it's, it's absolutely contributed to who I am and how I am in the world. But other people, Have had a more challenging experience often with their own internal feelings, but also because they're surrounded by a dogma, a religion, a culture that doesn't accept them for who they are. It's so for me, there are a few core aspects of living. One is that most people can expand into love. or contract into fear. And a lot of religions are fear based and are contractual. So people are fearful. They're fearful of anything that's different and they don't like it because it means they have to expand into love to accept that. And that is too challenging for them, even though most of those religions are Expressing that they're love based, but as we all know, some of them are fear based and within all those religions, you see fabulous people doing great work in out in their communities who are loving and accepting and uplifting of people and spend a lot of time brokering situations for other people in in challenging situations. So it depends very much on the person. And what's beautiful to see now is that now queer people have the same legal and human rights in this country, but still in other countries, they don't have those same equal human rights, that culturally things are shifting. But of course, we all know, because we don't have to look at the abortion, uh, the abortion debate in America and know that, as someone once said, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance, because if you do not pay attention to that, if you are not Stepping up to that, then it can disappear in a moment. And I think people in our community are very aware that just like it's been a long time coming, it could disappear at any minute. And so people are trying very hard to entrench those human rights into laws so that that cannot happen. But time will tell. You know, the sky didn't fall in, society didn't collapse, you know, people didn't marry tables or animals, you know, they, they didn't. And so hopefully people will have expanded a bit more in their awareness and their maturity to see that really, you know, you want to give people that right to, to, to, to, to commit to someone and to create family that is safe and recognized by law and their death will become a part of that.
Catherine:And how have you seen, through your experience, the individual has been celebrated? What unique sort of things have you seen families and loved ones celebrate? In general? You're talking about? Yeah, in general.
Zenith:Everyone. Yeah. Uh, I think the, you know, it's sitting at the kitchen table. So for me, there's a very simple equation. So it's who the person is, how they've lived. And how they die, plus who you are, your relationship to them, and your familiarity with death will give you a response. And so, each equation Will be different. And so the response to each death will be different. So sometimes if it's someone old and they've lived a great life and they died well, then it's a very easy way to move into celebrating that person or honoring their life because some circumstances are terrible. You know, it's a young person. They've been murdered. They've died in an accident. They've taken, killed themselves. And so that you know, taken an overdose or something like that. And so that's a very different set of circumstances to try to honor that person's life and acknowledge the circumstances of their death. And a good celebrant, a good clergy person, whoever is conducting that ceremony, who is sitting at the kitchen table with that family, consulting with them, listening to everyone who needs to be listened to, and co creating something offers healing. offers understanding, offers a chance to honor that person, to honor the circumstances of their death and their life, because some people have very challenging lives. And sometimes People have become alcoholics. You don't know what the cause of that was. Who knows what happened to them as children or as young people. But I don't think anybody makes a choice. I think I'm going to be an alcoholic. That's a great career move. It's usually because they're in pain of some sort. And the more we know about child sexual abuse and, you know, what happens in communities and families, is that I generally give everybody the benefit of the doubt that that may have happened to them, and I proceed accordingly, and that makes me a kinder person, and it also allows for whatever needs to come to the surface to appear. So when I go to sit at the kitchen table, I don't say, Oh, I'm so sorry that someone's died. I sit down, I say, What do you want from me? What do you need from me? And people then respond, but if I smother them with my pity, or sympathy even, they, because sometimes they're glad that person has died, because that person is free of their suffering. And if I come in with my smothery approach, they won't tell me that. Because I'm making the assumption that they are destroyed by that death. And sometimes people have behaved terribly, or it's an abusive person, and so people say, you know what, Zenith, we're glad they're dead. They've been a terrible person to us all our lives, and now we feel that we're free. And if I If I come in open and real and authentic, but completely present, but open to find out what is happening in that family, not what I think it might look like, then that is, and I was very fortunate to learn that lesson quite quickly because I was that sort of person and I didn't come with any training, I was just That's true. People just asked me to come when they were dying or when someone had died. And so I had to learn on the job. And I had a very simple code, which was I'm doing for others what I would want someone to do for me. Ooh. And so when I sat at the kitchen table, I assumed I was that 10 year old child. I assumed that I was that elderly parent. I assumed that I was that partner. And I proceeded to behave in a way that I would want someone to behave with me by putting myself in their shoes, but without knowing all the circumstances. So, I trod very carefully, but very clearly. And I learned a lot. I learned a lot really fast and it's that, you know, knowledge and experience that I learned from each family, from each person and took that into the next and the next and so by offering people an openness and listening to what each person at the table has to say, you can create something together with them. that they feel is theirs, not mine. I'm not doing it all for them. And how I saw my role was to be the beginning and the end, but the middle part was theirs. And so really what I was doing was setting a pace to be able to support them, to be able to share about their person. So I never say anything deep and meaningful, or even deep, about someone I've never met. I say, I never met them. While I was alive, I met with their family and together we have created this for you. But you and them are going to make this happen in the way that's the most appropriate for you, because you're the people that knew and loved that person. And people love you for not talking about someone that you never met, as if you did. And so, But really it makes them have to step up because when they've done that, even though it's challenging, like anything that's challenging, we feel fantastic afterwards because we feel that sense of achievement. And I spend a lot of time getting men in particular to stand up to speak. So that they can stand in their honor, because for women, if women don't speak at that funeral, they'll just say, oh, I couldn't speak at my mom's funeral, I was too emotional. And that's the end of it. They don't beat themselves up. They don't feel dishonorable. They just feel that they couldn't do it, and that was that. But for men, if men do not stand up and honor someone, and the reason that What stops them is they are too emotional and they don't know how to manage those emotions or express them in public. So, I think it's one of the most courageous things, a man or a young boy or an old man or anybody, anybody, absolutely anybody, but more men who are in the culture where they're not allowed to cry, then they've been suppressed from showing any emotions because that's not how they want boys and men to be. And so to get them to stand up there and cry in public and then be able to speak is an incredibly satisfying thing to watch because they are not going to live with the regret that they weren't person enough to honor that person that they loved. And if, if I, if I only do that once a year, that's it. I only have to make it that difference for one person and it's a good year, but of course, I'm doing a lot more than that, but it's the subtlety of humanity and people's responses and, and just watching how incredibly capable and courageous people are in times of crisis. that are challenging to them. And so to, to walk with them, to accompany them, to guide them through an experience that I've been through a million times with everybody and have a torch to show them the way is, you know, that's all they need. They just need to lean into someone that they feel that they can depend on and trust. And so authenticity, integrity, the willingness to walk with them. even when I didn't know what I was doing, was an incredible gift to bring to people. And we were co creating and we were co teaching each other what it meant to be in those situations. So I was very fortunate to get all the learning without the suffering. And people were incredibly courageous and incredibly open and trusting because they felt they could trust. I was willing to stand up and be there with them and we got there together.
Catherine:That's lovely. And what are the other things that you think that families might find challenging? You've obviously talked about men, ashamed or embarrassed to actually show their emotions. What other things have you noticed that are consistent across families that are challenging when someone dies?
Zenith:I don't think there is any consistency that no two families are alike. No two people are alike. So you can be sitting at that table, one person will absolutely love that person and the other person hasn't liked them all their life. So you have to dance with what is in front of you and you have to be. Uh, so, in your own integrity, that people will trust you, even at the table. So, but the biggest thing is when there's been a family dispute, or divide, or something for a long time, and death will generally magnify that. And some people will behave incredibly well. They will be the very best people they can be in that situation and others will behave appallingly and behave and become the very worst of themselves. And you, you won't know that's happening until you're either at the kitchen table or during the ceremony. But hopefully you can, if you're paying attention at the kitchen table, you will. Be able to ask people what's happening, they will be able to tell you and you can dance with it or someone will tell you on the side, uh, something that you need to be mindful of and then you can either try and address it before it becomes an issue or create it. An environment that it can be expressed at the funeral or in a meeting, and you can dissolve some of that. You can disarm some of that intensity, but it's not my place to be a counselor. It's not my place to be a referee, but I have sat there where some people, siblings will have had a fight. Uh, you know, a verbal fight, not a fisticuffs. And I've sat there and I've just thought, you know, this can only happen because I am sitting here and they trust me enough to be able to say these things to each other that they should have said years ago, but they're saying them now. And, and I have to trust that that is exactly what needs to happen because I am coming, I am probably 10 hours in that, in their family experience. They've got 50 years together or whatever, so it's not my job to resolve it, but it's my job to try and assist them to make that moment the very best it can be in the set of circumstances that they have got. And I'm not afraid to be that person. If it was shit, I would just say, I'm out of here. You're on your own. This is too dysfunctional for me, and I would just walk away. I wouldn't have any problem at all saying that, because I'm smart enough to know that. And be able to read and listen and see what is actually happening. And sometimes it's just part of that process that needs to happen in order for it to clear as a blockage on their way to resolving that situation. So I'm not so interested in what the ceremony looks like. I'm more interested in what it feels like and what happens for those people on the inside as part of their process. So I'm bringing the very best of who I am to that moment to assist them in that transformation. And I'm, prepared to give it a go, but I don't take shit from anybody at the same time. So it, you know, that comes back to that self care you were talking about before. Yeah, that's right. You need to know what your boundaries, you need to set some boundaries, know what they are, and then not Take them down, unless you want to, but Now,
Catherine:Zenith, what have you done to prepare for your own death?
Zenith:Uh, not much, I can tell you. I've done all the legal paperwork and put that in place, which I feel every person over 18 should have a will, even if you only own a car, and a computer, and a bed. Uh, because without that piece of paper, It is a real hassle for the people who are left behind. There are other pieces of paper that are appropriate for when you're alive, and you cannot make decisions for yourself. So have all of that in place. But after that, I've written a toast to be read with a glass of champagne and, but I haven't spent 30 years on that coalface changing how we do death and talking to my friends and family for them not to be able to get something together that is absolutely the very best it can be. I'm not that much of a control freak, so I don't really care. I don't care what happens. I care what happens in that moment. I care what happens in my dying, whether that's on the side of the road, or in weeks leading up to something. But after that, I really don't care. I'm much more interested in life than Jeff.
Catherine:And just on that point about being more interested in life, we were talking off recording earlier about how you celebrate your birthday. Tell me a little bit about that.
Zenith:Well, I feel incredibly fortunate to be healthy, you know, a fully functioning human being. I mean, of course, everyone's messed up somewhere. It's not like everyone's perfect, but I have a life that is very rich. Doing work that I enjoy. I'm learning a lot all the time. I'm sharing that knowledge and experience with others that is helpful to them. I have an incredible community of a very diverse community of lots of different Friends and different subcultures and different age groups. And I've just had my 67th birthday, which was a massive party with fabulous speeches. And it was just really beautiful to watch everybody come together. And, And be busy, because it's a great preparation for when you die, so that those people are connected together, they'll make a great ceremony for themselves, and for me, and I think every, really every birthday is an opportunity to celebrate who you are, and it's a preparation for your friends for when you die. And for yourself, knowing that that birthday could be your last and I know because I'm often at friends birthdays and then I'm conducting their funeral for them. And when I refer back to that birthday and say, Oh God, that was such a great birthday. And everybody goes, yeah, and you can feel that energy in the room. But if, if they'd missed that moment, you'd be saying such a bummer. They didn't have that birthday and have all their friends and family in one place because now they're missing it. Yeah. So I think, you know, honoring who we are and our place in our family, in our friends, in the world is a really important thing to do and take, because it's an opportunity also to take stock and see whether the life you're living is actually the one you want to be living. And some things need to change, and it gives people that opportunity to change those things that aren't or, uh, um, detrimental.
Catherine:Now, Zenith, you've just actually finished your ninth season of the Vagina Conversations at Brunswick Picturehouse in Brunswick Heads in New South Wales. Can you please tell me about this project and how it came about and what is it?
Zenith:So, ten Eleven years ago, a young woman arrived in the Byron Shire, and she wanted to put on the Vagina Monologues, which is a set piece by Eve Ensler, created probably 20 years ago now, very powerful, and Eve Ensler did a range of interviews, and then collated together some monologues, which were the condensing of those stories into a story. And people could do those and do it as a fundraiser for a women's service. And she asked me if I would emcee those two annual events, which I did. And then she said, I'm done, I don't need to do this anymore. But I just thought, you know, we've, these stories are 20 years old. We have got enough great Women and people with vaginas in our community, we can tell our own stories because everyone's got a story. And so I created an event, I invited 10 women to come and tell their stories. I produced it, I directed it, we did, I was one of those people, I delivered those, we delivered those stories. Uh, it's sold out and we made something like 5, 000 for the local domestic violence service in Mullumbimbi. And so the next year we put on two nights, I invited another 10 different people, mostly women. Uh, and we made on two nights, we made 8, 000, something like that. And it's just continued from there. So this year was the ninth year. We did four nights because the first three sold out so quickly. Uh, we had the opportunity to do a fourth one and we made 32, 000 for the local community, uh, domestic violence service and also the one in Tweed. They do it, they take a night, but all up we made 32, 000, which we just give to them. They don't have to account for that money. They can spend it however they want with people. So it's a win for the presenters. It's a win for the audience. It's very educational. It's political. Sometimes it's shocking. Sometimes it's funny. It's a win for the domestic violence workers who feel supported and have more money to play with. It's a win for the users of that service. It's a win for all the local businesses who donate prizes to us because people know that they donate those prizes and support those businesses. But really it's, It's a connecting, powerful thing. It's become an annual event and what it's also done is made the word vagina much more common because people are saying, Oh, I'll see you at the vaginas. I'm going to the vaginas. I'm going to be a vagina this year. I was a vagina last year. And it's educative. So we're telling, you know, usually as part of that, that women have 10, 000 nerve endings in their clitoris. Yeah.
Catherine:Which, well, on that point, I should probably, uh, actually show you what's on my desk. Oh, Charlie, good. Great. Uh, I have just shown Zenith that I have a rubber clitoris on my desk, uh, courtesy of my, my urologist, who is Professor Helen, uh, O'Connell, who discovered and matched the clitoris. Uh, so, so yes, that's my little trophy from my urologist. So
Zenith:we would love to have her as a vagina. Should she want to come and spend four days in the Byron Shire?
Catherine:It's, it's rather amazing that it took so long and it took, you know, uh, all that time to actually have it mapped. It says a lot of things, doesn't it?
Zenith:Yeah. I mean, I would probably say it's not amazing. It's part of a massive conspiracy or cover up by the medical system, which was, you know, staffed by men who, and only men were allowed to learn those things. And so I'm sure when they were doing autopsies and whatever they were doing with dead bodies, they discovered that, but they did not give that information to the world because they would have cut those bodies up absolutely dead. bit by bit to discover all the working parts of a body. And I'm sure they were fascinated by women's bodies in particular, because our bodies are so phenomenal. They're so amazing. And our vagina is, you know, the strongest and the most amazing and complex body part on the planet. And so, you know, it's not, By chance that that was hidden or discovered.
Catherine:And also omitted from the Grey's Anatomy handbook. Yeah. Any reference to it.
Zenith:Yeah. And then you have to look at, you know, FGM, female genital mutilation, and that's been happening for years, and that is a way of punishing and controlling women. And that, you know, that is not a humane activity. I know it's a cultural activity, but I'm, cannot, support that in any shape or form.
Catherine:No, I don't think that you're the only one with that opinion, Zenith, at all. Now, Zenith, I've heard you mention in your TEDx Byron talk, point number eight of advice that you give to people before they, uh, you know, as they prepare themselves for end of life. Now, it's not advice that you hear in most, uh, sort of places. Can you please explain to me what La Petite Morte means?
Zenith:Yeah, so it's a French expression which means the small death. And it's usually in respect to the orgasm, whether that's a male or a female or anybody in between orgasm. And it's been, I don't know when it came into being or when it was used, but it's a very common awareness that people have. And as part of that TEDx talk, what I was doing was sharing eight things that I had learned about death. In my work over the last 30 years, and one of those was that, uh, sex was a great practice for dying because it's an opportunity to expand, it's an opportunity to merge into something much bigger, to be out, feel something more than our skin. And, uh, I think really if you need it in full detail, then, uh, Check out the TEDx talk. It's only, I think, 15 minutes, but it also has lots of other really valid points. I wanted it to be as helpful and as useful as it could be. But yeah, because if, and that was the premise, was if, if orgasm is la petite mort, is death. The total body orgasm and I feel that that is absolutely possible and because no one comes back to tell the tale, but I think that that's for me, that works as a concept, not in some airy fairy way, but in a way that if you are working towards something and you are practicing at something a bit like going to sleep, you know, going to sleep is also a great practice for dying because you're, you know, You're trusting, you're falling into a deeper trust, which I don't want to terrify anybody from falling asleep, but there's something in that, that when you give over to something bigger than ourselves, bigger than what we know, because no one knows what happens when we're sleeping, and so, but sex is a great practice for dying, I absolutely believe that, and it's lots of
Catherine:fun. Well, we will definitely make sure we include the link to the TEDx Byron talk in the resources. Now, I can't thank you enough for spending time with us this afternoon. Is there any other advice or encouragement that you'd like to give our listeners? Well,
Zenith:I think, you know, if you, if you want to die well, then clearly you have to live well. And I think a lot of people, and that doesn't mean you have to be the top of your field. It means you can, you can just become the very best person that you can be in the set of circumstances that life offers you. But You know, our lives are a work in progress, our deaths will become part of that, and one of the greatest things a grandparent can do is to teach the grandchildren or young people in their lives a little something. Example of dying well and of explaining death, because what they're doing is preparing those children for the death of their parents, which is how it sort of unfolds. But often, you know, children will die. Young people will die. And. So we can't assume that there is a natural order. But the more across death children are, the better human beings and adults they will become. Because if they're treated with honesty and respect, they will be able to process those situations. And so when their peers die as young people, they will have a chance to deal with that well, rather than It messed them up forever. So adults need to get over their own fears and contractions in order to be generous and, um, educative to their children. And every loss, every death of an animal is an opportunity to, for children to be able to learn about death in a supported, loving environment. Thank you so much for that advice,
Catherine:Zenith. You are welcome. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, brought to you by Critical Info. If you liked the episode, learn something new, or were touched by a story you heard, we'd love for you to let us know. Send us an email, even tell your friends. Subscribe so you don't miss out on new episodes. If you can spare a few moments, please rate and review us as it helps other people to find the show. Are you dying to know more? Stay up to date with. Don't be caught Dead by signing up to our newsletter and follow us on social media Head to Don't Be Caught dead.com for more information and loads of resources.