Funerals: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. Insights from Jackie Slater

Welcome to another episode of 'Don't Be Caught Dead' where we shine a light on the topic many of us shy away from – death.

This week, we're joined by a special guest, Jackie Slater, an authorised marriage and funeral celebrant. Jackie's spent over 40 years working in the funeral industry, and her journey in this industry is as intriguing as it is inspiring.

In this episode, Jackie unravels her career journey, from starting as a 'Saturday girl' doing admin work for a funeral director, to becoming the manager of a cemetery and crematorium. Along the way, she's seen it all – from good funerals, to the bad and mediocre ones, which led Jackie to become a funeral celebrant herself. She shares her experiences of working with families to create personal, meaningful ceremonies, and the challenges she's encountered in this process.

We also dive into Jackie's role as the president of the Funeral Celebrants Association of Australia, and how this role intertwines with her duties as a funeral celebrant. Jackie shares insights on the shift from traditional, religious funerals to more personalised, secular ceremonies, and the importance of open conversations about death in our families.

Key points from this episode:

• Jackie’s journey from a 'Saturday girl' to a funeral celebrant
• Challenges faced by the families while planning for a ceremony
• The shift from traditional funerals to more personalised ceremonies
• Role of a celebrant in creating a meaningful ceremony

No matter where you are in your understanding or acceptance of death, this episode is sure to provide valuable insights. As always, we're here to encourage open conversations about death, dying, and everything in between.

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,

Catherine

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In episode 110, we talk to Tim Booth, a paramedic and the best-selling author of You Called an Ambulance for What? and You Went to Emergency for What?  We're giving you a chance to win a copy of his new book, Post-Mortem. To enter, send us a message via Spotify or Apple fan mail on this episode, or leave a comment on our social media. Tell us what stories you'd love to hear, or send us a question you'd like us to put to a future guest. Entries close September 13.

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Transcript

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0:42

What do you believe is the most challenging aspect that you've had to work on with people who have lost a loved one? Not knowing what they're supposed to feel like. You get some people who can't stop crying. And they say, oh, I can't stop crying, I can't do anything. And I say, well that's fine. You will eventually, but you've got to work it out. I get other people that I visit and they say, Oh, I feel terrible. I haven't cried yet. That was me. I haven't. Still haven't had this huge cry from my husband. But, in talking to them I find out their loved one had been ill for quite a while. And they'd been preparing for this. They knew it was going to happen, they just didn't know the exact day and time. So they've had what, uh, A great woman that I know said to me was anticipatory grief. So you've had that, you've had your grieving every day leading up to it. And that made sense to me. For the people who are crying all the time, it's usually, it's come as a shock. There's no easy way to die. There's no easy way to have a loved one die. Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared. Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges the lands of the Kulin nations and recognises their connection to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their Elders, past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe. Jacqueline Slater, or Jackie as she's preferred to be known, is an authorised marriage celebrant, funeral celebrant, and president of the Funeral Celebrants Association of Australia, and also a member of the Celebrant Network. She has experience in event management, hospitality, and business administration. For the past 40 years she has worked in the funeral industry. Jackie describes her celebrant services as ceremonies for life, love and loss. Thank you for joining us today, Jackie. Thank you for having me. Now, Jackie, tell me what led you to become a funeral celebrant? Well, it all started over 40 years ago when I was a young mum with two young children and I got a job as a Saturday girl. With a funeral director, for anyone who doesn't know what a Saturday girl is, it's someone that goes in, works on a Saturday, doing admin work. And I started out and learned how to do admin work, how to arrange a funeral when a family came in, because we were just a couple of doors down from the local hospital. So people would walk down, When they'd lost someone, walk down straight away and say, I need to arrange a funeral. The person that I worked for also owned a local cemetery and crematorium. It was independently owned. And so, I became the Wednesday girl. Bit like a Saturday girl, but on a Wednesday. And it was Wednesday because that was pay day. And they needed someone in the office and someone to go to the bank. My duties and, uh, knowledge there grew and grew. My days there increased and grew and grew till when the manager retired. I became manager of the cemetery and crematorium. And by this time, my duties at the funeral directors had decreased. as my duties at the cemetery and crematorium had increased. Now, working in a cemetery and a crematorium, you see lots and lots and lots of funerals. You see good funerals, you see bad funerals, and you see mediocre funerals. And when I say bad, I saw some really bad ones. And what do you mean by bad funerals? I'm not going to mention any names here. But, of course, I had a member of the clergy, and I'm not going to say which religion, but who was proud of the fact that they could be in and out of the chapel in 11 minutes. Wow, and that's the entire service that they were delivering? That's the entire service that they were delivering. Wow, that's not something to be proud of, is it? No, it's not. We had people come in and you knew they did exactly the same service, they just changed the names. Peace. Yeah. And I heard it so many times I could have recited it. That's, that's what it was like and then it was just as civil celebrants were starting to do funerals and I watched the growth of That happening and I thought there's got to be a way to better way to do this It's the last time would have that been Jackie. How old were your boys and and what sort of period are we talking about? Okay. Well, I started You I was the Saturday girl and the Wednesday girl, and my youngest son was 18 months old, and my eldest son was three and a half. And I had a very, very involved husband who was involved with the, with our children, and would look after them, on Saturdays and school holidays and things like that. And I had an amazing mum and mother in law who would look after them during the day. And then when they went to school, they would be picked up after school and I would look there. So without my family, I just couldn't have done it. I mean, there wasn't the daycare like there is now, and long daycare and things like that. So, and my family, my boys grew up with a very healthy attitude to death and funerals. And I remember when my, one of my boys said to me one day, so are you working tomorrow? And I said, yes. And he said, okay. Well, when you go to work, will you? Stop and say hello to my first grandad for me. Now he's, what he called his first grandad was my husband's father who'd passed away and his mother had remarried. And I said, Yes, of course I will. Is there anything in particular you want me to tell him? And he said, No, but will you take a Kit Kat for him in case he gets hungry? Oh, that is so cute. So, from the time they were very young, and for special occasions like Mother's Day and Christmas Day and things like that, I would go in, because we live very close to the crematorium, I would go in on those. days to top up flower vases that we'd put out because families, we never had enough flower vases and my boys used to love to come with me to do it. Oh, how lovely. They'd ask, are we going to do it? So, and they have that very healthy attitude now and it's been passed on to my grandchildren. Oh, that must be a lovely thing to see. It really is. It really, really is. And so I'm assuming when the boys were growing up and your husband was there to also assist in taking care of them. This would have been around about the 60s, 70s? No, this is the 80s. This is the 80s, okay. Yes. But still rare for a man to be doing those sort of roles in, in that time. I was very, very fortunate. From the time my boys were born, Michael was involved. And he would do things like, he would take them out for the day, on his own. The only thing you used to say, that was from the time they were toddlers, and the only thing you used to say to me was, please dress them the same, because then if I lose one I can say to people, have you seen a boy like this? Oh, that's hilarious, I love that. Fortunately, you never lost one. Now, you were mentioning previously that With the change of roles that you, you started off doing the administration and then you moved over to be more involved in, from the funeral side to more of the crematorium and cemetery side. So tell me about that transition. Well, I started out, as I say, the Wednesday girl. There was just one other person in admin, the manager, and I would help her. And then, I would get more things to do and then, uh, Computers came along and she was more involved in, when Computers first came along, she was more involved with learning how to use it and how we could invo operate it efficiently for our business. And so that got me involved in doing more of her roles. Then, unfortunately, she got sick and had to have some time. Out of work. By this time we got so busy we had another. Girl that worked reception, and I was asked to take, to fill in the manager's role while she was off sick. She came back to work for a while, and I stepped back. During the time that she was off sick, there had been plans for above ground burial. crypts to be built, so I got very involved in the building of that. Then she came back and I stepped back a little bit into my, my role. I used to see families to, to word plaques and memorials. We still had people who would walk in there occasionally and want to arrange a funeral, so I would do a funeral arrangement there. And then when she finally retired, I was actually asked to take over her role full time. So that's how I advanced through. It was over a period of a number of years, it didn't happen overnight. From the time I started as the Saturday Girl to the time that I retired, the first time, I was there over 20 years. So that's how I saw a lot of changes and a lot of coming and going. And, yeah. And tell me about some of those changes that you, you saw during that period. Like, you've just mentioned the fact that you saw the introduction of computers into business administration. Yes, saw the introduction of computers. As I say, we built above ground burial crypts. So I got very involved in that because in the area that I live, we have a community that are used to having, with their background, above ground burial groups. So I had to learn all about the rules, regulations and laws involved in what was needed with those. And also the thing that the, to liaise with funeral directors to make sure everything had been done that needed to be done. And what are the sort of things that, that need to be done? Jackie, just for people who are unfamiliar with what has to happen when you're organising a funeral and that communication between the person who's arranging the funeral, perhaps talk us through that role and then the role that you find that you're then communicating with the director. Okay, so Just for a, a, a general funeral, what I would say a gen in, in a, a cremation, if someone's passed away and they're going to be buried or cremated, so hopefully they will have made prearrangements and their family knows exactly what they want. If they haven't, the first thing the family needs to do is to consult a funeral director. Now, the funeral director will meet with them and will help them and guide them. to fill out all the paperwork that needs to be filled out. They'll discuss how they want the funeral to go, where the ceremony is to take place, where the burial, if it's a burial, where it, where the burial is to take place. They will discuss with them the sort of coffin that would like, they would like, whether or not they would like flowers. And if they do, whether they want, the funeral director to organize them, or the family wants to organize themselves. Whether they want announcements in newspapers, or on social media, and a myriad of other, um, um, and they will ask the family if they want to have a religious service, or a service with a celebrant. Now these days, more and more, because people don't go to church as they used to. As much as they used to. Mm. They feel that they don't want to use the church as a convenience just for burials. Mm. Or weddings because there is more, more flexibility now in the sort of service that you have if you use a celebrant both with weddings and funerals and. often with, with funerals not being held in places of worship, they're held in all sorts of different places. They can be held outside, inside, in halls, in the crematorium, in local neighborhood halls, all sorts of places. And is that one of the big things that you've seen is that transition from a religious, uh, church based or faith based, um, ceremony to a more secular, uh, casual approach? Yes. Yes. It has, there's been, uh, I've noticed a big swing. Now, some celebrants will not involve religion in their service at all. They say, no, I'm a civil celebrant, I'm not, I'm not affiliated with religion, I won't have anything. But you'll be surprised how many times. I go and visit with the family, and I sit down with them and we talk about the ceremony that they want. And they say, we don't want any religion, mum or dad wasn't religious, they didn't go to church. And then when I'm going down my questions that I always ask, and I have a printed sheet, which I go down and ask questions, to make sure I don't miss anything. And I will say to them, Now, I probably know the answer to this, but I'll ask the question anyway. Would you like the Lord's Prayer? Oh yes, you can't have a funeral without the Lord's Prayer. So, I will include the Lord's Prayer. I will say to them, would you like the 23rd Psalm? What's that? So, I recite the opening lines. Oh yes, yes, mum loved that. And what are, what are those opening lines, Jackie, if you could share with us? The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want. I think they're pretty distinct opening lines, aren't they? They are. They're so I do, if a family would like that included, I am the type of celebrant that will include that the same way as if And do you meet with the families? Okay. The, the family's been to the funeral director and they've, they've told them that they, they want a, a celebrant to do the funeral sometimes. The funeral director will ring me and say, we have a family that would like to have a celebrant based, uh, ceremony on such and such a day, are you available? I look to my diary and I'll say yes, I'll take down the details, and I will contact that family and arrange to meet with them as soon as suits them. Sometimes a family get in touch with me direct and say, Oh, you did a funeral that we went to, and we wondered if you'd be available to do a mum's funeral on such and such a date. Same thing. Check the diary. Yes, I'm available. I take down the date. The details, and I make an appointment to go and see the family. Sometimes it can be the next day, sometimes it can be a couple of days later. Sometimes, and I have had this, for, with circumstances or family wishes or whatever, it can be a week or two weeks later. But I always meet with the family. Unless they live a distance away that is not practical to travel, because that's where they live and they're just going to come down for the service, then I will do a Zoom or FaceTime meeting. But I must admit, I much prefer to do a face to face meeting if I can. And I don't mind travelling a couple of hours to get to that face to face meeting. Wow, that's, that's dedication for a few hours for a meeting. And, and tell me, you've got your checklist that you go through with the family. What sort of things are on that checklist, Jackie? Okay, well my first checklist that I have is what I call my inclusions checklist. So, with that checklist I ask them what sort of things they would like to include in the ceremony. Would they like the Lord's Prayer? Would they like the 23rd Psalm? Who is going to be doing the eulogy? Is it going to be a family member or friend, or do they want me to do the whole thing? So that's another check. Are they having a slideshow, they're very popular now, of photos of the deceased and memories? Yes, so tick off yes. And I ask who's going to be preparing it. Because if it's a family member, I always like to acknowledge in my ceremony and thank the family member that's involved. Has put that together because it probably wasn't easy for them. So that's a tick. Yeah, are they going to have Reflection time where we just have some a couple of quiet moments play a piece of music Well, everyone can reflect on their memories of the deceased and at that time too I always say and if you're a person who prays You might like to offer a silent prayer for the deceased name at this time because you never know tick that off Are they going to have what What we call a, what I call a flower placement. Lots of families these days, as their personal tribute, like to, the immediate family, like to place a single flower on the casket. So if they're having a flower placement, I include that. Do they, if it's a cremation, do they want the curtains to close? Or do they want them left open? Are they having a wake somewhere? If they are, Do they want me to announce it and is everyone invited to attend? Is there anyone special that would like me to thank? Like a hospital, a nursing home, a special friend that's looked after, mum or dad or whatever. And all those are ticked off my checklist. Then I have a second checklist, which I call my ceremony checklist. And I just sit with the family and we just chat. Like I'm chatting with you now and I'm making notes on this checklist as I'm talking to them And I do explain to them at the beginning while we are talking if I'm not looking at you and I'm writing I'm still listening and taking down and I go through um, Questions and gain information and make notes. Is there anything special that you want to do within the ceremony? Is there anything special you would like to include as a reading or a poem or any special piece of music that you've chosen? And if so, why? And so on and so forth. And they may say to me, well, our grandchildren, you know, they're not old enough to speak, but they really would like to do something. So I suggest that they make a drawing or write a letter to Grandma or Grandpa. And They can hand it to me, and we can go and put it on the coffin. Sometimes the child wants to hold my hand and go and do it with me. Sometimes they want to do it while I hold their hand. So it's whatever the family wants. It's all about designing the ceremony to suit both the deceased and the family. Because families come in all shapes, sizes, and makeup these days. It's not the nuclear family of two parents and kids anymore. And what are the, some of the things that you find challenging at that time for families to discuss or consider in that planning process? It can be off when the, the deceased hasn't sort of made any arrangements in advance and hasn't really written down their wants and needs in advance. Sometimes it's difficult for a family to even work out what they wanted because I could be sat at a table with, let's say, four children and one will say, Oh, well, Mum wanted this because she told me. And another one said, well, no, that's not right, because she told me she wanted this. And the third one says, well, you're both wrong, because she told me this. And the fourth one says, well, she didn't tell me anything, so I don't know. But then we, we chat and we find out, she told one 20 years ago, she told another one 10 years ago, and she told the third one last week. So, actually coming to grips and, and working out what the deceased actually wanted can be difficult for them. Um, it can also be difficult sometimes if mum or dad has had a, Difficult life, um, and some of the family think that mum wouldn't like that included. For perhaps, mum had, was, mum or dad was perhaps married very young, and it wasn't a happy marriage, it didn't last very long. There could have been domestic violence involved or, or anything else like that. The marriage ended. And then they went on and married someone else years later who they had a long and happy marriage with. and had more children, so, and, so we might get children from this blended family because she had some in the first unhappy marriage, some in the second who've all come together to make these arrangements. And the, the, some of them will say, Oh, we don't need to include that first marriage because, nah, it was short, it wasn't happy, no need to do it, we don't need to include it. And others saying, Yes, but it was a part of her life. So, You can't just brush it under the carpet. So then, I sit and chat with them and discuss ways that we can acknowledge that first marriage took place. Sadly, it didn't last. We don't have to go into why, or we don't have to say sadly. We can just say, unfortunately, or we can just, just say the marriage didn't last. And she went on, you know, a few years later she met or he met someone else and we go on to say they had, they developed a loving and lasting relationship that went on for however many years. So it's all about finding what they want and if they can't agree wholeheartedly on something, thinking and suggesting ways that. They can perhaps be a happy medium, so that can be quite challenging for families. Yeah, it sounds to me that in this what can be sometimes quite challenging, Jackie, that you're almost like a gallery curator and you're curating a collection of stories and the best way to tell them. Would that be a fair way of thinking? That would be, I've never heard it put like that before, but yes, that would be a very good way of putting it. Well, that's, that's quite the talent you have. Thank you. And tell me where you're the president of the Funeral Celebrants Association of Australia. So tell me a little bit, well, actually we haven't even covered off on, on, on how you got started as a funeral celebrant. So perhaps we should talk about that first. Right. Well, as I say, I saw those funerals that were good, bad, and absolutely awful. And in my family, Not just my immediate family, but also the extended family. I was the person that was always asked to do the eulogy at funerals. So whether it be a church, a religious funeral, or one in a cemetery or a crematorium done by someone else, the family always asked me to do the eulogy and then my brother in law got sick. I think it was my brother in law because it's done so many now. A family member got sick and said, Would I do their funeral? So I said, of course, I was honoured to be asked. It was a step up from doing a eulogy. I'd seen funerals, I knew what, what I liked and what I didn't like. So I sat down and I wrote that first funeral. I delivered it and it turned out to be quite a big funeral and I never looked back. More and more family members, family members, friends, you know, people. So that's how I got into doing funerals. And also. I'm an authorized marriage celebrant, so I, I do weddings among other things. And I've even had people say to me when I've done a wedding that was an absolutely beautiful service, beautiful ceremony, beautiful wedding. I don't suppose you do funerals, do you? And I say, yes. Yes, I do. And they'd say, right, I want you when my time comes. And tell me, is that a common thing that happens? That people say, I like what you've done. Can you, can you then come and do this for me? Yes. Yep. And, and that, that, that path that you've taken of being a, involved in the funeral industry and then moving on to become a celebrant, is that a traditional way of doing it or is it normally people who are marriage celebrants becoming funeral celebrants? What, how does it normally sort of happen? Happens both ways. Ah, okay. Happens both ways. Sometimes people start out working in the funeral industry and go on to become a funeral celebrant. Sometimes it's marriage celebrants that are asked to do a funeral for a member of a family that they've done a wedding for. Sometimes people have no prior experience. They just decide that they want to be a funeral celebrant and so they, they go for it. The funerals The celebrant industry in Australia is not regulated like the marriage celebrant industry is. To be a marriage celebrant in Australia you have to do your training, you have to apply to the Attorney General's Department to be authorised, you have to do ongoing professional development every year, so it's quite involved. Funeral celebrancy is not like that. Anyone at all can be a funeral celebrant. And that is why sometimes they say, a funeral, a family will say, Oh, we have a friend that's going to do the funeral. So the funeral director says, fine. And they let them get on with it. And that person might only have been to three or four funerals in their life. So they can only go with what they know. And it might not always be what a more experienced person. Funeral celebrant would do. Funeral celebrant association Australia is the only celebrant association in Australia that is only for funeral celebrants. There are other celebrant Australia, uh, celebrant associations in Australia that have funeral celebrants. celebrants and funeral celebrants as part of their, under their umbrella, you know, as part of their association. But we are the only one that is purely for funeral celebrants. So we, we run professional development workshops every year. We have days of learning that we run each year in various states in Australia. We have a website where anyone can go to our website and have a look and that's how people can get in touch with a celebrant in their area and there's ideas on there for people. There's, there's readings, there's all sorts of information. There's a plethora of information on there that anyone who is wanting to get more information can go to. There's a few things that just struck me that you've just said then, Jackie, and, and, you know, it does always surprise me when I found out that funeral celebrants aren't regulated. And for me, I suppose the reason why that struck me as surprising is that, you know, with what you've mentioned, the challenges that people have to navigate when you're talking to families who may be blended families and all of those issues or perhaps complications that could arise during that period, especially when you then mix, uh, grief and other emotions at a very heightened time. That was a real surprise when I found out that, that it wasn't regulated. And the other thing that you were mentioning where people decide to become a funeral celebrant. I know it was something that I was considering to become a funeral celebrant when I was looking at a, a role that I could do with my chronic pain. And for me, the emotion I realized was probably too triggering for me to be that close to the emotion. But the idea was placed in my head because my auntie was a funeral celebrant and she said it was the most rewarding role that she's ever had in her life. And she even showed me these beautiful scrapbooks that she's been, or she's, she's created from all of the thank you cards. from the people and the families that she's done the funeral services for. And it was really, really beautiful. So I can see why people, you know, do just specialise in funerals. Mm. Mm. To be honest with you, I personally would like to see that. funeral celebrants regulated. I mean, we all know funeral directors that the funeral directors, funeral industry is regulated. So I'm not saying that's not because it is, it's highly regulated. What I'm talking about not being regulated are funeral celebrants. So, you know, anyone can, can take a funeral ceremony. I would like to see The industry, personally, I'm can't, I'm not speaking for FCAA members or any other celebrants I know, I'm just speaking for myself. I personally would like to see it regulated because you would get, there would be far more training involved in the celebrants. They would have to make sure their skills and their knowledge are kept up to date. They would have to make sure that the right thing is done. They would have to really put some effort into it. I mean, I, all my ceremonies are written for each individual family. Yes, I have a couple of little things. that work, that I might use more often than not, but every single ceremony is written individually. I don't have a shelf where there's half a dozen different ceremonies, and I pick the one that I think is most improper, most appropriate, and change the names. I don't do that. They are all written individually. So that's something else that's involved as well as, You know, all the other things. And I think if people had to do funeral celebrant training, they were more trained in poetry and prose, and public speaking, and, writing because not everybody that thinks they are is a good public speaker. And in addition to those qualities that you just mentioned, is there anything else that you think makes a good funeral celebrant? Empathy. Empathy. You have to have empathy with your family, but you can't let that overtake your life. You have to have a way of separating. When you're working and when you're not, you have to have a good work life balance. And I think that's very, very important. I know a lot of us have our own little thing that we do when we get home from taking a ceremony or meeting a family. For me, it's, and it sounds an odd thing to say, but I go and first thing I do when I come in, is put my bag down, switch the kettle on, Go and change my clothes. Take off my, my ceremony clothes, my working clothes and put on casual clothes. Make myself a cup of tea. Sit down with my cup of tea. And just decompress a little bit, and then I'm back to work. But you need to take something. And I'm never frightened to take a day off if I've got a spare day, even if it's during the week. Because, also being a marriage celebrant, I often work weekends too, so. Mmm. I really like the idea that you come home and you get changed. Yeah. I think that's an amazing way of physically shedding that sort of aspect, uh, and, and that responsibility that you have, and then sort of reclaiming, I suppose, that, that casual bit. more comfortable bit for yourself. I can really relate to that. For me, when I was working in a corporate environment, that was the first thing that I used to do was get out of the, the stockings and the high heels and the skirt and the, the power dressing, you know, jackets and, and change because just that simple process really does change how you feel. It does. It does. So that's great. That's really fantastic advice for, for someone. And, and one of the other things that you find that other celebrants do to set those boundaries and make sure that they are giving themselves a little bit of self care. I know, actually, funnily enough, on one of our Days of Learning last year, that was one of the topics that we covered, self care. I do know of some people who have a playlist that they put on in the car. They have one playlist for when they're going to do a ceremony, to sort of put them in the right frame of mind, and then they have a different playlist that they play in the car on the way home to get them out of it. the ceremonial frame of mind into another. Some, I know, meditate when they get home. Uh, some go for a walk. Some actually stop at a coffee shop on the way home and have coffee. Those are just some of the simple things. And tell me about Funeral Celebrants Association of Australia. How long has it been running? And you've mentioned the fact that it's the only association in Australia that focuses on funeral celebrants alone and, and does not focus on civil celebrants, uh, in relation to weddings or other ceremonies. So tell me a little bit about that history and your involvement and how that came about. Okay, it started, the idea sort of came forward in about two thousand and seven when there were some celebrants that did funerals that were involved with a marriage celebrant organisation and wanted to sort of get them involved a little bit with funerals and the association didn't. So, a few celebrants got together and decided to form an association purely for funerals. That actually place, the association began in 2008. It's incorporated in New South Wales. As a not for profit, so we work under NSW guidelines in that our constitution is, and we have a constitution with things, you know, has to be registered with Fair Trading in NSW. And actually, we have just, uh, in March, uh, registered. made changes to our constitution. It was registered with Fairtrade in New South Wales in March. And it's grown from just a couple of people that used to get together in New South Wales until now it's Australia wide. In the early days, they used to have meetings. They would get together physically for meetings. But of course, and then when people in other states join, they used to have their meetings in other states. It's always been, uh, one of our aims has always been, it's a learning place, but it's also a networking working place. It's a sharing place. As technology has increased, we now have, uh, two Facebook groups, an open Facebook group for everyone and a closed Facebook group for everyone. Where our members can ask questions and of each other and help each other. Helping, sharing, that's one of the reasons we're all about. We, our committee meets once a month. We now meet via Zoom. We, since COVID with the wonders of technology. And yeah, we, we're always there for each other. We reckon if you can't do a, take a funeral in your area, we're Um, you may recommend someone that you know that would suit this family that can. So yes, and it's, I guess we're all about bringing knowledge to the public of what they can and can't do. And also, for a long time, the funeral celebrants were contacted by funeral directors on behalf of the family. And funeral directors tended to contact the same ones all the time because they know that one works and they've got their number on file. So we, we are educating people as well that you don't have to have the celebrant that the funeral director says, Oh, we'll get in touch with this for you. You can choose your own. It's your personal choice. And person that you choose will work with you to make the ceremony fit the family's wants and needs and the personality of the person, the deceased that the person is for. So we're about bringing knowledge To the public as well as to Celebrants. And Jackie, you mentioned previously that on your website people can search for a celebrant Yes. Uh, in their local area and find someone nearby when they, uh, they are making those inquiries with the celebrant. What do you think are the, the key questions that a family should be asking to find a celebrant that might suit what they need? Okay. I would. If I was choosing my celebrant, first of all, I would ask them, do you come and meet me somewhere, or do I have to come and meet you? What do I need to bring? Can I, if I've got any pre requests, I would say, would you be comfortable doing this? For example, I did a ceremony for a young gentleman who had passed away, who was well known for his, let's say, colourful language. Yeah. And he had a certain phrase that he always said when he was saying goodbye to someone. And it had one of the words in it that I would not use within my language, but he used it all the time. And the family said, at the end of the ceremony, when you close it, would you say this phrase? It was what the family wanted. Yeah, it's not something I would normally, but it was important to them. So what I did was, I did say that phrase with a colorful word, but I said, this is not something that I would say, but in the words of, use the deceased name, and then used it. So you need to find it. If you've, if you've, you're a family that has a person like that in their family, I would talk to your celebrant and say, would you be comfortable doing this? Because if they say, oh no, they're not the celebrant for you. Yeah, that's true. I would ask, if you're a family that wants some religious content like the Lord's Prayer, the Twenty Third Psalm, or a Bible reading, ask your celibate would they be comfortable doing that? Because that way you'll find out yes or no. Because you don't want someone that's not going to be comfortable doing what you want. So they're the sorts of questions that I would ask. No, that, that's, that's really good advice, Jacqui. Thank you very much. Now here's a question for you, Jacqui. What have you done to actually prepare for your own funeral? Well, I have my funeral arrangements made and paid for. I have my plot in the crematorium chosen and paid for. It's all in a file in my filing cabinet in my office. And I've taken both my sons, when they visited, I've said, come with me. And I've said, this is the file that you need. Now, it was something that I was always going to do. And lots of people are always going to do. We're great gunners, aren't we, people? You know, there's always things we're going to do. Yeah. Well, in 2022, I went to a celebrants conference. in Adelaide. It was a marriage celebrants conference. And my husband always used to go to these conferences with me because he, my best friend is a celebrant in Queensland and her husband used to go with her and the boys would catch up and have a great time. My husband had, uh, was ill. That was a progressive illness and he decided he wasn't going to go with me because the weather, if it got to his chest, he had a lung condition. And so he said, I'm not going to go, but you still go. So I took my sister as a traveling companion, and off I went, and I spoke to him while I was away, but I had a day that I couldn't get hold of him, and the day I was traveling home, I couldn't get hold of him. Now unfortunately, I came home to find that he had passed away. Oh, Jackie. So I had to make his arrangements, and then once his service was over, I said, You know, a couple of months later I said, I just woke up one day and today was the day I had to do it. I just felt it within myself, I had to do it, so I went and did it. So that's so I have prepared as much as I possibly can and and that's the thing is that you know There's those tasks that we always say that we'll do when We have the holidays or when we have some time off In your case, I believe you're on your Second career, is that correct? Are you retired? You mentioned retirement before and Well, I retired from the cemetery and crematorium. Some of us aren't meant for retirement and staying home all day just didn't agree with me. So, I went to work part time for a charity for disabled adults, and I used to do the payroll for the people, the, the disabled adults that worked in the, uh, in the organization. And, you know, I just went for a little while and I ended up being there. I went on mater to fill in for someone on maternity leave and ended up being there ten years. Thanks. So then I retired again from that and we did a little bit of traveling and then I came back and during that It was during that time that I had become authorised as a marriage celebrant. So I was doing marriages right there. And then the funeral started coming in as well. So I thought, Oh, so I retired for a second time. So really I'm on my third career. That's great to hear. That's, that's fantastic. Now, what do you believe you've touched on a few of them, but, but what do you believe is the most challenging aspect that you've had to work on? With people who have lost a loved one. Not knowing how to They're supposed to do what they're supposed to feel like. You get some people who Can't stop crying and they say I can't stop crying. I can't do anything and I said, well, that's fine You will eventually but you've got to work it out. I get other people that I visit and they say I feel terrible I haven't cried yet. That was me. I Haven't Still haven't had this huge cry from my husband, but in talking to them, I find out their loved one had been ill for quite a while, and they'd been preparing for this. They knew it was going to happen, they just didn't know the exact day and time. So they've had what, uh, a great woman that I know said to me was anticipatory grief. So you've had that. You, you've had your grieving every day leading up to it. And that made sense to me. For the people who are crying all the time, it's usually, it's come as a shock. There's no easy way to die. There's no easy way to have a loved one die. For some people, it happens very suddenly. And the deceased doesn't suffer. But the family does because they haven't had time to do and say everything that they would want to do. For some people, some families, it takes quite a while. And the family doesn't, let's use the word suffer again, but that's not what I mean. But the family doesn't maybe feel it as, as keenly because they've had time to do and say everything that they want to do and say and prepare themselves. But the person who passes away may have had, may have, once again we'll use the word suffer, may have had, uh, not the, the best few months or weeks or days before they've gone. So, sorting that out can be quite a challenge with families and people that I visit and that, that I work with. And I'm never afraid to say, I don't know. If they ask me a question, should I do this, should I not do that, should I, should I, I would say, I don't know. You have to do what's right for you. I don't pretend to be a grief counsellor. I don't pretend to be a therapist or anything like that. But I can say, if you would like me to, I can maybe look for some resources that may be of help to you and pass them on to you. I don't know everything. I don't know. I'm not trained in any of that. So I don't, that's not my area of expertise. I don't try and pretend that it is. So, yeah, that can be quite challenging. And is there, in your experience, would you say there's an, you've seen an optimal time in which to have a funeral? Like is it sooner or waiting a few weeks or is it totally dependent? Dependent. It suits the family. Whatever suits the family. Some people want to have it and get it over and done with, so that it doesn't linger on. They don't want it to linger. For some, for some reason, family may live overseas and they have to come from overseas, or they may be away on holidays. Cruising's a popular way to have holidays these days, and if you're on a cruise somewhere, you can't get home. It depends what the family has spoken about. what preparations have been made in advance. Some religious faiths have to have their funeral ceremonies held within so many hours or so many days. So that's quite often that is normal practice for them. Other people really, it's, it's personal preference. It's personal preference. And I often think you really don't know what you would do until you're in that person's shoes. And is there any advice, additional advice that you'd provide, given your experience and what you've seen, Jackie? Prepare. Prepare. I work with families, if they would like me to, I work with families where they can contact me in advance. I have some literature that they can read and fill out and put aside and tell their family they've done it. So that when The person passes away, all the family has to do is go and grab that little booklet and everything is there that they need. The documents that they need is, uh, is listed in that literature, and they can get them all ready, like birth certificates and marriage certificates and, and, uh, name, where they were born, where they went to, you know, all those sorts of things. Also, the questions in there help, would help the celebrant prepare for their ceremony, and also the person that's doing their eulogy. Lots of questions. Celebrants do things like that now, but it's, it's very, very helpful to have everything there. It just makes it so much easy for them. So yeah, as much as people can prepare and look into things and don't be frightened to talk about death. Just because you talk about it doesn't mean it's going to happen. I mean, I have sons that have been talking about it since they were talk and they're now in their mid forties and it hasn't happened to them, you know, so just because you talk about it doesn't mean it's going to happen. There's also don't brush off children. If children ask questions about death, answer them as honestly as you can. There's lots of literature that you can get for books to read to children and to tell children. If children want to go to, give children the opportunity. To go to a funeral. Don't tell them they can't go. Don't push them off to school or to a friend's to have the funeral and then let them be involved. Children are far more knowledgeable than we give them credit for. They can handle far more than we give them credit for and it hurts them more if they found out that they've been told stories or untruths. They will ask the questions their little brain and knowledge set needs to know. And don't fob them off. And I think if you do those sorts of things, you're fostering a healthy attitude to, to death and dying. Because let's face it, it comes to all of us. There's no way we can avoid it. Well, Jackie, I think that's a beautiful way in which to end the interview. so much for being on top of this today. for having me. We hope you enjoyed today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, brought to you by Critical Info. If you liked the episode, learnt something new, or were touched by a story you heard, we'd love for you to let us know. Send us an email, even tell your friends. Subscribe so you don't miss out on new episodes. If you can spare a few moments, please rate and review us as it helps other people to find the show. Are you dying to know more? Stay up to date with. Don't be caught Dead by signing up to our newsletter and follow us on social media Head to Don't Be Caught dead.com for more information and loads of resources.